Guy Kawasaki Interview

Arthur: Rock and roll Guy. Kawasaki. Wow. What a privilege it is to have you here today on the Collective Institute of ideas podcast. I. Prolific podcaster, and to all my listeners you've gotta go check out guy's.

Podcast guy was the chief evangelist at Apple. Currently is the chief evangelist at Canva, which for anyone who's not used, Canva stop what you're doing and check it out. Guy I met you very briefly after you did a presentation at Stanford through which I believe you were persuaded, hands twisted to do through Tom Kosnick who's a professor at Stanford for those of you who don't know who.

She teaches an amazing program called Technology Entrepreneurship. And Tom talks a lot about how giving to people. And you talk about that and how powerful that has been to, to your journey. When did you realize how powerful it was to do things for other people?

Guy: I have to [00:01:00] say that came to me at the middle or towards the end of my career it's often not that obvious in the start of one's career because at the start of one's career, you're probably sewing more than you're reaping. It would be like asking a farmer, if you plant your seeds in March when did you know that you were gonna have a successful crop?

It might be September, right? So I was planting my seeds in January and I'm reaping my flowers in September.

Arthur: Can you think of moments where you've done things for people and it's just surprised you in ways that it's re helped you out later on?

Guy: I have to confess that I don't really think in terms of transactions and quid bull crow, I believe that you should just default to yes, and you should just help indiscriminately. And it's a temptation to, if you think too much [00:02:00] and you're thinking I'll help this person because this person can.

Do this for me later. Obviously that enters into my mind and everybody's mind, but generally speaking, I would say that the better strategy is just freaking help everybody because most times when you help somebody. It's not like they're asking you to do this humongous favor or something like that, right?

If it's trivial or if it's easy or it comes to you naturally just do it. And then you, I think you should not think that, it's quid pro call. So if I help person, a person A is gonna help me back I think you just help. Everybody, and there's a karmic scoreboard in the sky, and so whatever this superpower is, it's keeping track.

That guy helped a lot of people, so now he's gonna get the help back, not necessarily directly from the people he [00:03:00] helped.

Arthur: And there's this amazing example you gave talk about your early days at Apple and how you. You are you are such you are clearly someone who's. Loves to create energy and really help people understand things. And that was a big part of your role at Apple.

And you mentioned how any journalist at the time you would be, you'd get to speak you'd accept calls, and then they ended up going from small institutions to really big institutions. And you thought, wow, gosh who know how, never knew they would end up in these other places.

Guy: Yeah, you just never know that the person who is it might you take the worst case, it might be someone working for a high school paper and then 10 years later they're the. West Coast editor for the Wall Street Journal. You just never know. So just help everybody. That has really been my philosophy now.

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't say yes to everything. There are, some things I do decline and sometimes [00:04:00] just logistically I cannot do things. But generally speaking I just like to help people. I think that there is. Some intrinsic value that you get from helping people. I mean that, I don't know, maybe that's just in my DNA.

Arthur: Talking about helping people, really what we've gotta do is help ourselves as well on the journey. And at times when, and you've talked about this success looking like it's been such a linear journey from the outside seeing people who are doing really well and actually how there are gaps in.

And on moments of uncertainty, how have you got through those moments where it's di it's difficult to, want to give to yourself,

Guy: first of all let's discuss this concept that you can plan things in a linear fashion. I'll give you a quick summation of my career, okay? So I can show you that as Steve Jobs said in his famous Stanford, commencement address. You can only connect the dots looking backwards. Let me show you the dots in my life.

So I was born and raised in Honolulu, [00:05:00] Hawaii, in a poor part of Honolulu. A sixth grade teacher convinced. My parents to take me out of the Hawaii public school system and put me in a private school because she saw my potential to go to college. Luckily, she did that. Luckily, my parents, listen. Luckily my parents made the sacrifice to put me into that school for the life of me.

I don't know why, but I applied to Stanford and for the life of me, I don't know why, but Stanford admitted me. It could be, believe it or not, because this was so long ago that back then. If you were Japanese American, you are considered an oppressed minority. So we've come a long way since then. So I go to Stanford and I become friends with someone.

And what? Caused our friendship is a mutual love of cars. So he loved cars and I love cars. The difference between him and I is that he [00:06:00] came from a wealthy family and he had those cars. I came from a poor family and I wanted those cars, but we still had cars in common. So I majored in psych because that was the easiest major I could find.

I went to law school for two weeks because my parents, as a Asian American, they wanted you to be a doctor, do a doctor, dentist, or lawyer, and I didn't wanna stick my hands in any part of the human body of other people so I became this lawyer or law student, and I lasted. Two weeks and I dropped out and I returned to Hawaii, came back the next year to get an MBA at UCLA, and while I was at UCLA, it's a four day a week program, so I had Friday, Saturdays, and Sundays off.

So I took a part-time job doing of all things, counting diamonds and counting diamonds. I went to that. Company after I graduated with my MBA, when my friends were going to Accenture and Goldman Sachs and [00:07:00] Wells Fargo, and JP Morgan, I went to a small jewelry manufacturer where I learned to sell, and that skill of selling has paid off for the rest of my career.

It enabled me to be an evangelist for Macintosh. So then this guy that. Shared my love of cars, was working in the Macintosh division. He recruited me. I became the second software evangelist. I worked for Apple, then I, did a bunch of high tech jobs and ba banging, ba bang. Here I am, and Chief evangelist of Canva and all that.

And so I look back on my career, the turning Point was a sixth grade teacher in Honolulu, Hawaii. And my love of cars and and going into the jewelry business helped me to learn how to sell, but I cannot tell you that I sat down one day, I said, guy, what you should do to prepare yourself for a tech career is you should go and schlep diamonds.

Arthur: Yeah.

Guy: conversation never took place in my [00:08:00] head. But now, looking backwards, I can tell you that choosing the easiest major at Stanford in psychology. Working for a jewelry manufacturer, company selling prepared me to be an evangelist, which is the, catalytic point of my career, and that's only looking backwards.

Arthur: And look looking, thinking about before you joined Apple, right? So your, one of your best mates works there and I. You get this opportunity to join that business at that time. What did that opportunity represent to you?

Guy: We gotta go back in time a little bit more. So listen I am from Honolulu, Hawaii, as I said, and in Honolulu

Arthur: I.

Guy: there were fundamentally a few career paths. There was tourism, there was agriculture, and there was retail.

I must say that I fell in love with computers and I, I fell in love [00:09:00] with technology and I got off this airplane and this bus comes from Stanford to take all the incoming freshmen to the campus.

And when I. Learned about California. It was as if the scales were removed from my eyes. Here was a place that, there was more than tourism and retail and agriculture. There was tech, there was Hewlett and Packard, and there was Intel and National Semiconductor and all these great things and so the horizons of careers.

California was very different from Hawaii and I just, I, like I was I got off that bus. I said, man, this is the place for me. I have found the place for me. And everybody's not everybody, but many people are driving these German and Italian cars and.

Arthur: Yeah.

Guy: I, I a lot of people when you ask them what motivated in your career, [00:10:00] they say stuff like I wanted to foster economic development or freedom of expression, or changing the environment or preserving trees, or, whatever.

I just wanted to get a better car.

Arthur:

I love it. I love it. And, from the outside chief evangelist what do you feel you give to that role and then that role gives to, to a business?

Guy: The word evangelism is based on a Greek word, and it means bringing the good news. So what an evangelist does is, duh, bring the good news. So I brought the good news of Macintosh that it would make people more creative and productive As the chief evangelist of Canva, I bring the good news that Canva will make you a better communicator because we have democratized design.

So that's what an evangelist does. That evangelist brings good news. And the difference between evangelism and most form of [00:11:00] sales and marketing is that the evangelist has the other person's best interests at heart, not just his or her own best interest. So it's not like I am, because Imad. Pure sales, and it's about my commission and my income and my bonus and my quota.

An evangelist is thinking, I want you to use a Macintosh 'cause it's gonna be good for you. It increases your creativity and productivity. I want you to use Canva because now you can make beautiful designs that you could be a better communicator and you. Gonna have better social media. You can have better 16 by nine presentations and better infographics and better resumes and everything.

And so there really is the other person's best interest at heart too.

Arthur: Communication. You present the whole time. I remember when you were presenting in in Palo Alto, Stanford you were like black slides, 10 slides, 10 [00:12:00] points. And in, in so many ways that just rips up the playbook of what you normally see, right?

You normally see slides with so many details. When you advise people on presenting and communicating, what do you tell them?

Guy: I come from the Steve Jobs School of Presentations, I believe in a dark background because I think it's easier to read white texts on black than black texts on white. When you go to movies, when the film credits came out, when did you ever see black text on a white screen for a movie credit?

It's because it's painful with all that bright white and you want a dark background and a light font, so that's the way you should build PowerPoint. Now, Steve Jobs, when you're looking at the Steve Jobs slide. Many of the fonts in his slides were a hundred points, and when you have a hundred point text, you don't have a lot of text.

On the slide, you have three, four or five words. And by contrast, [00:13:00] I think people, they are trying to put too much text on their slides. And a slide is something that is just supposed to get you the main idea and then you're looking back at the speaker. So this is what Nancy Duarte, who is a speaking and presenting expert, she said this is called the glance test guy.

So what happens is you put up your slide, people glance at the slide, they read the two or three words. Then they're back looking at you. They're not looking at the slide anymore. So they're glancing at the slide. And then, but if you look at many people's slide, it's 8, 10, 12, 14 points. It's pie charts, and these are little s slivers.

And one sliver is light blue and one sliver is dark blue. And off the side in six point font, there's the explanation of what the light. Blue slice is and what the [00:14:00] dark blue slice is. And anyways, like people are looking at your slide, what? What the hell is this slide trying to say? And whenever they're doing that, they're not paying attention to you. You want to just look at the slide? Look back at you.

Arthur: Yeah. Yeah. It can take people a while to work out what they're really good at. You've got children yourself. What do you advise people who are on that journey of working out where their fit is?

Guy: Yeah, I'm 71 years old. I'm trying to figure that out myself. But I think what happens is that people get this false expectation and because they hear all these people saying, you need to pursue your passion.

Think that is very bad advice because when they use the P word, it implies that one day you're gonna find this thing and you're gonna immediately fall in love with it, and you're gonna immediately be good at it, [00:15:00] and you're gonna immediately want to dedicate the rest of your life to it. And. Yeah, I suppose that could happen, but I think that is extremely unlikely and what I advise people is instead of trying to find your passion, what you should do is you should pursue, I. Interests. So podcasting might interest you. Writing might interest you, music might interest you, programming might interest you.

So when you find these little interests, scratch those interests and see if they turn out to be something that you love you have to understand when you get interested by an interest. The likelihood of you being immediately good at it is very low. So you need to expect that, it's going to be frustrating.

It's gonna take perseverance and grit to be good at something. So if you go through life thinking, oh my God, I'm gonna find this passion, I'm instantly gonna be good at it, and I'm [00:16:00] instantly gonna make a shit load of money doing it. You're gonna have a miserable life. So what you do is just pursue these interests.

When something interests you, and just grit, gut it out, and just pursue it until. It either defeats you or you just lose interest. But don't expect it's a lot like falling in love and if you go through life thinking someday I'm gonna meet the perfect woman or man for me, and it's gonna be instant love and the rest of our lives, it's gonna be perfect love.

I hate to tell you, but what you should be doing is collecting data because you need to collect a lot of data before you make a decision.

Arthur: That wonderful word, grit. The Americans, the Brits have so much to learn from the Americans.

Guy: I don't know about that.

Arthur: with,

Guy: There's a lot you should not learn from us.

Arthur: That there's a mixture of things going on there, but fo[00:17:00]

Guy: Will you take us back because I think I may prefer King Charles than King Donald.

Arthur: I mean your mix of, your social mix of people in the Valley, right? This, there's disproportionately people are in tech, and it truly, I went to Stanford for the summer exchange program because I was aware of how much impact it was having in the world.

And just the scalability of the platforms.

Guy: Better or for worse though.

Arthur: Looking at, perhaps you'll take a different view of this, but to, to me, you seem one of the reasons why you've done well is because you seem to have this incredible empathy. Insane empathy about what, understanding why things are the way things are and what people need, and then also communicating that which is very, useful in terms of interpreting value from technology and and all these things.

Ai, right? We live in a crowd of, we're always hearing [00:18:00] views. What do you want your impact to be on this technology and where are you on the spectrum of, whoa, things are gonna get so great and I'm nervous,

Guy: I am, I promise you, just as nervous as you. But let me more, more specifically define my nervousness, because let's just say that. There, there's this line of reasoning that AI is dangerous because AI could self-replicate. AI could become sentient, AI could become evil. AI could get pissed off with another country's ai and if these ais are controlling the nuclear weapons, then.

They're gonna start a war. And next thing you know, chat, GPT is declaring war on, Russia, GPT, and the world comes to an end. So we cannot let AI get control of everything. I, on the other hand, have this [00:19:00] attitude I think that AI is the biggest deal I've ever encountered in my career, and I am convinced that AI is smarter than people.

AI is sentient. AI has better judgment, and AI may be the only thing that saves us. So I offer you a multiple choice test. Okay? Here's the multiple choice test. Let's take it as a given that there are nuclear weapons in the world. So somehow there's gotta be a way for those nuclear weapons to be deployed.

So this is the multiple choice tests. Who can launch a nuclear weapon? Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, Kim Jong-Un Netanyahu, or chat GPT. Those are five choices. Pick one of them. I picked chat, GPT. I think if you went to chat GPT and said, should I start a nuclear war with Russia? I think the answer chat GPT will give [00:20:00] you is much better than the answer Pete Heis will give you. So now what I see happening often is that. People take the worst case of AI and they compare it to the best case of humans. What you should do is you should take the worst case of AI against the worst case of humans, or the best case of humans against the best case of ai, but to take the worst of AI and the best of humans.

You're living in a dream world and you're saying AI could cause the end of the world, but thank God we have all these wonderful leaders who are gonna preserve the world. I don't know what wonderful lords you think

Arthur: Yeah,

Guy: they're referring to, but I don't see them.

Arthur: yeah. I find it enormously difficult to understand how the world's gonna change with this technology. Do you spend much time. Trying to [00:21:00] work out how things are gonna be different. If we just look at education, for example, right? So it, if, from one angle there's been a huge democratization of education in that people can find out, so much information on YouTube, et cetera, et cetera.

And, according to articles, people can, are gonna have personalized courses tailored to your learning style, right? There's like super exciting parts to that extrapolating, from that change. How do you, is that, do you have advice for people in terms who wanna understand how the world's gonna change?

Guy: I don't know if you can quote, understand how the world is gonna change. I think that, if we knew exactly how that would work we would probably run the world a little differently. But I, I. You you're asking me to explain how the world will change with ai. I would push back on you and I would say, explain to me how the world is gonna change under fascist despotic leaders, because I [00:22:00] see that as a much greater threat than the threat of ai.

Arthur: yeah. Surely there are solutions that, you know with that problem in America, right? That problems, happened at different historical points. How do you feel that technology is helping the situation or not

Guy: yeah,

Arthur: or can.

Guy: It, I have to say, I agree with you here. It's hard to build a case that technology is called helping the situation right now, do you think that Twitter is making the world a better place? That is a very difficult position to support. Listen, I, I had this no naive romantic belief that with the internet and social media there would be, the democratization of information and everybody could access this information and we would all make much more enlightened decisions.

It hasn't exactly turned out [00:23:00] that way. Now having said that, we only hear about the extremely negative things, right? We hear about the pedophiles on, social media and that kind of stuff. We never hear about the good stuff that has happened because of social media. It would be interesting, I don't know how you would keep score, if you took all the bad things of social media and all the good things.

Where would the scale end up? I still would make the case that, generally speaking, social media on a personal level, that enables you to have relationships with your family and friends and new friends. I. Is much more positive than, just because there's pedophiles and fascists on social media, which there are.

But I think overall it's still a positive thing. , I definitely would make that case with AI and AI has been a game changer for me. It's made me into a better writer for [00:24:00] sure. So maybe, maybe I'm just crazy optimist.

Arthur: Even looking at, Canva the product, just looking at the user journey and how much AI they use, and D script I know you used at some point for podcasts and be able to edit countless benefits.

What I, is there in terms of loneliness and community do you do you know people who are focusing on solutions in that space that you find inspiring?

Guy: Okay. So I gotta tell you a very good story. Do you know who Deepak Chopra is? Okay, so I interview you Deepak Chopra about four weeks ago. And of all the interviews I've ever done and discussed ai, I thought for sure Deepak Chopra would say that ai I. Is either a negative or a non-actor in spirituality and meditation and mindfulness and all that [00:25:00] good stuff that Deepak stands for, but knock me over with a feather.

I was just amazed when in the interview he starts telling me about how great AI is an AI which has digested the knowledge of the entire human race. And put it all and made it available that AI is the ultimate guru, and you can use AI as a guru because it has all this knowledge. It's available very inexpensively.

It's available 24 by seven. It never gets frustrated. It never gets pissed off. It never gets depressed. He said AI can be the ultimate guru. When he told me that, I almost fell off my chair, but I, I suggest to you listeners you just try, just pretend that chat, GPT is Deepak Chopra or Deepak actually has its own LLM.

You can actually [00:26:00] interact with Deepak Chopra, LLM, and in that sense, you could make the case that now everybody has access to deep Chopra, not just the people who you know, can afford his seminars and can afford his books and read English and all that stuff.

Arthur: So well put a topic I find fascinating is , just how humans are. It's hard to be efficient with resources and delegate resources in a way that matches how big problems are, whether you look at spend on different health issues how some areas are overfunded, et cetera, et cetera.

And there's so much propensity for AI to release insights into, where those gaps are.

Guy: Let me ask you a very simple question. Let's say that you have a baby you are trying to figure out, should I vaccinate my baby? And you can either ask [00:27:00] Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Or Chad GPT. Should I vaccinate my baby for measles, mumps, and rubella? Go for it. ' cause I could tell you, I will listen to Chad GPT, not RFK, junior, about whether I should vaccinate my child. And I think you know that kind of is a very good example of

Where AI is superior to man.

Arthur: You are interviewing so many interesting people at the moment who are from such diverse fields. Is there a field that you really want to learn far more about

Guy: basically I'm on a mission to help people be remarkable, and I don't really have preconceived ideas. I just, I talk to. That I, this is my life, right? So 52 times a year I interview someone who's remarkable, and one [00:28:00] week it's about. Menopause. The next week, it's about mindfulness.

The next week it's about cooking. The next week it's about professional football. The next week it's about influence and persuasion. The next week it's Jane Goodall talking about primates, Nates, and so I don't. I am just trying to bring out all these remarkable people's methodologies and techniques and inspiration so that people listening to my podcast will also be remarkable.

I don't particularly have a. Slant? I believe in science. I believe in reproductive rights. I believe in LGBTQ plus rights. There are things I, there are bright hard lines for me, but generally speaking, I am, I'm just looking for people who are remarkable, not rich or famous, remarkable. And I believe that is like my moral [00:29:00] obligation , to try to get that knowledge out into the world.

Arthur: and these people you meet, are there any surprising learnings that you have about these people?

Guy: A interesting observation for me is that all these remarkable people, they have a growth mindset.

They believe they can do new things and learn new things. They also have a grit mindset, which means they know that when you try something new, you're probably not gonna be very good at it at the start. So you need to be gritty, you need to persevere, you need to keep going. In the face of failure. And then the third thing that I notice about all these people is at the end of their career, they have a very graceful or gracious approach to life where they want to pay back society.

They want to help the next generation. It's no longer about them. It's about making the world a better place. And. And that's what absent in many [00:30:00] Silicon Valley, highly successful people that it seems like the richer they get, the more they care about. income tax rate and making crypto successful.

You know what a pathetic thing that you know, you're gonna go down in history as the person who tried to get the capital gains tax reduced and make crypto successful. I don't want that on my gravestone.

Arthur: Yeah.

Guy: I have higher aspirations than that.

Arthur: Yeah. And the world, it's a very different world for people who are at school today, students. With the changes going ahead and with what you talked about, what are the things that you think should people should be focusing on?

Guy: so first of all, you might not find this very surprising, but you have got to become. Proficient at using ai. If you do not do that, that would be like if 10 years ago. I told you, you better become proficient at using computers and you said, [00:31:00] nah, computers are a fad. I'm going to use my manual typewriter with my white al whenever I make mistakes.

I don't need computers, I don't need the internet, i'm up to speed. I got a fax machine. I got a electric typewriter guy. I am good to go. I'm telling you, if you take two equal people and you give one a computer and one not the one with the computer's gonna win. The one with the calculator's gonna win and the one with AI is gonna win.

So you have got to embrace ai, that's number one. Number two is, as I said, look for interests not passions. The passion is too. It's too big a challenge to find a passion. Just find interest and pursue interest. And knock on wood, maybe some will turn into passions, but don't expect things to be a passion immediately.

And number three is something that, many people just cannot relate when I say to this, but I think as a young person and you're in your first few jobs. [00:32:00] Understand that you are supposed to make your boss look good. That's your role. You make your boss look good and people say, guy, what the hell are you talking about?

I, if you make your boss look good and your boss succeeds and your boss progresses and your boss gains more functionality and power and status and all that, and you're just coasting behind your boss. The rising tide floats all boats. And I've met people who think my job is to make my boss look bad because I'm gonna make my boss look so bad.

I'm gonna get his or her job. I have literally never seen that. If your boss goes down, you're gonna go down with him or her. You're not gonna rise above your boss. So I say, just wake up to it. Your job is to make your boss look good. Another piece of tough love from Guy is that there's this concept that you can achieve work life balance.

50% work, 50% life. And I will tell you that [00:33:00] the way that's calculated is wrong. That people saying at any moment, if you sliced up my life, it should be work life balance. I'm saying that over the course of your entire life, when you add up all the work and all the living. It'd be great if it was roughly equal, but at any given moment, it may be more work than life.

So I would say in the first third of your career, you're gonna be underpaid. Overworked. In the second third of your career, you're gonna be overpaid and underworked, and in the third part of your career, that's when you should be paying back. And then if you add up all that, it's gonna come out 50 50 if you do it right.

To say that at 25 years old, I should have work-life balance. I wanna be zooming in from Bali. I don't wanna return to the office. I want flexible hours, I want work-life balance. God bless you if you can [00:34:00] pull that off. Hallelujah. But I don't think that's reality. So that's another piece of tough love from Guy.

And if you, in, in the last, and maybe the general principle here is that. You should be thinking, how can I make myself valuable, if not indispensable to my organization? And the way you do that is you keep showing up, you show up early, you stay late, and you do the shit work that nobody else wants to do.

And this is in the early part of your career. If you show up early, stay late, do the shit work that nobody else wants to do, make your boss look good, you are gonna be successful in your career.

Arthur: You recommended the book if you want to write by Brenda Yoland. How do you relate to that book?

Guy: My wife found that book for me. Thank you, God, that she did. And basically, if you want to write is by a writing instructor at the University of Minnesota named Brenda Yulin. She's long passed and the [00:35:00] gist of that book is if you want to write. You don't need anybody's permission. You don't need a degree.

You don't need a special course. You don't need anything. If you wanna write, and. I think the same thing is true for almost anything creative. If you want to be a programmer, write programs. If you want to be a movie maker, make movies. If you wanna be an entrepreneur, start a company. You don't need to get all this validation externally.

I. Although I would say that probably the thing that holds back most people is not the external validation. It's the internal thing in your head. This is, I'm not a writer. I don't have a PhD in English. I didn't go to Harvard. I didn't take this creative writing class. I don't have all this.

External validation that I'm a writer. Brenda Lin's book says, just fricking write if you wanna write. And I think you can put any verb in the place [00:36:00] of write, and that book works. So if you're out there, just buy that book, substitute, whatever you wanna do for the concept of writing, and off you go.

It's all about grit.

Arthur: Things are just gonna be changing, so quickly now. With even with, autonomous vehicles who's inspiring you at the minute?

Guy: I'll tell you a very funny answer to this. If you had asked me that question maybe 6, 7, 8 years ago, which is, Steve Jobs had already died, I would've said Elon Musk.

I think Elon Musk at the time was the closest thing there was to a Steve Jobs, and you could even make the case that maybe he exceeded Steve Jobs because Steve Jobs revolutionized devices, right?

Technology devices. But Elon Musk did cars, space tunnels, solar panels. Chip implants, [00:37:00] all these very different things. He would've said, my God, look at all the things he single handedly made the automotive business convert to electric. So I would've said, I would've said, Elon Musk is the most inspiring innovator alive. I would not say that today though, to put it mildly. I don't know what happened there. So that's a bad answer to your question, right?

Arthur: No it's a great answer. You talk, it's it's an individual who's made who's really changed the way that the world operates in so many fields. But you are around countless entrepreneurs and innovations at the moment. Are you, can you think of anything?

Or anyone specifically that you're like, whoa that, that's not really talked about yet, and that is gonna be that, that, that's gonna be a real game changer. Or ha has a very big impact in something quite niche that you're quite excited about.

Guy: To tell you the truth I'm not really in that flow very much anymore. Basically I'm on this little [00:38:00] podcast island called Remarkable People. I'm writing books. I'm writing a book about signal right now. How do you signal.

Arthur: No.

Guy: You better start. So I'm writing a book about Signal and I do the podcast and I surf a lot, which is right after this, I'm going to go surfing.

So I'm not in the flow of seeing two guys, two gals, a guy in a gal in a garage anymore. I am just trying to. Document how people became remarkable for the next generation to learn from. I'm not looking to invest in the next apple. I don't know if there will be another apple, but you know that's not on my horizon anymore.

And if I invested in the next apple today, it would take 10 or 15 years for that to reach fruition. I don't even know if I'll be alive 10 or 15 years from now. You know that's my horizon is very different. I just want to help people while I can.

Arthur: And Guy, you know what? What do you want more from your week? [00:39:00] Maybe it's a feeling, maybe it's doing something more.

Guy: I hate to tell you I wanna surf more.

Arthur: How is the surfing, because you took it up at 60.

Guy: I took it up at 60. If I had taken up surfing at, 10 or 11, I would not be on this podcast today. You would have no interest in wanting me on your podcast.

Arthur: Where are you gonna be surfing? Today?

Guy: I don't know, but. I would not have a podcast and I would not have worked for Apple and I would not have,, I don't think Kendall would be looking at me as chief evangelist.

Arthur: That's

Guy: I discovered surfing late in my life.

Arthur: I, yeah I share the bug. It's that there's, it's just, there's nothing else to it that, that, that can match that feeling. Guy will, we've taken so much of your time. Thank you so much for coming on today giving your time.

Guy: Listen, just like I said, I should default to. Yes. Thank you very much for having me on your podcast. I hope to communicate a little bit of tough love to help young [00:40:00] people and I don't. I don't wanna paint this like rosy picture that is gonna explode in your face.

I would rather be too tough than too loose. And I hope that what you know, what you heard today can help you change the world and make the world a better place and be remarkable. When I die, I want people to say I empowered them to make the world a better place. That's what I want on my graveyard.

I don't. I don't care about crypto and I don't care about long-term capital gains tax. I care that I empowered you to make the world a better place.

Arthur: Beautiful. Amazing. Thank you so much, guy. It was such a pleasure.