Matthew Dunn ex Mi6 Interview

Arthur: [00:00:00] Matthew Don, it's such a privilege to have you on, , with your experience working in the intelligence community in Britain for MI six and highly successful author it's not every day we speak to someone in from that environment. What I'm really curious to know is what it's taught you about human behavior

Matthew: oh my goodness. Thank you very much for having me on your show. But your question is it's a huge question and it's something that I still dwell on to this day. Really, one of the key things for me serving in MI six and the extreme aspects of that, and almost at times surreal aspects of it, was I was seeing human behavior, obviously operating sometimes in the most I've used the word extreme already, but it is literally the most extremist circumstances, the most testing of circumstances. And what that allowed [00:01:00] me to witness was probably a real sort of insight into people's souls, how people really, genuinely behave when they are truly tested.

Most, if not all, mis six officers were not qualified. For example, psychologists or psychiatrists for that matter. Were not academics within the discipline. But we are practitioners and we are in the field seeing human behavior, the human condition in its truest form. I think. So the circumstances of operating in the secret world, as I call it really it was a privilege really, because I was getting perhaps.

A greater insight into people and how they behave when they're really put under stress, and then perhaps more so than somebody who's operating in a more controlled environment.

Arthur: And with that you. You've got I'm sure many moments where people are incredibly exposed and, you talked about that rawness and being exposed [00:02:00] to people's souls. On one hand that's true. And then on, on the other hand, there's a lot of distance between these people in other parts of their lives, which you know less about, talk to us about, judging people and working out who people are.

Was cl clearly part of, a very important aspect of what you did talk to us about a about that, the challenges and maybe there was some useful kind of tricks and tools that you've come across specifically what you have talked about, which has been a theme in.

In episodes we've done so far is this concept of gut and how you, in your community, it was very clear that there were just situations where you did not explain, you didn't need to explain fully with data on why you came to a certain view. It was just a sort of gut feeling with elements of objective data, meaning that you led one way.

A and I'm just gonna quickly tell a fascinating story. There was an, there was a [00:03:00] a undercover police cop who was working in the drug unit in the uk. It's incredibly corruption's, a really, a real issue, real challenge just because of the nature of how lucrative drugs are and.

He had some new colleagues involved in this case, and he just had this gut feeling about one of them that he, that he couldn't shake. He just said to his hi his boss, listen, I can't work on this, if that person's on the case. Anyway, 15 years later , they ended up removing that officer off the case and later discovering that he was in fact completely corrupt.

Arthur: and he couldn't explain it. So tell us more.

Matthew: Yeah. I think you referenced something there that was quite important about the process for MI six officer and indeed other intelligence agencies, we are very objective driven. My insights going back to the earlier parts of your questions, my insight into people, I'm very minded [00:04:00] that it was, not in entirety. It was with a specific purpose, subjective in mind. So put bluntly, I was looking at somebody thinking, can this person do what I need them to do? And so I was judging them on that level. I wasn't judging them chapter and verse on all aspects, all components of their life and everything else.

So I think there's, a sort of perhaps a slight misconception that people like me were able to look at somebody and they were a complete open book. To me that's not necessarily the case. And it would also have been a waste of time. So really we're trying to get to the sort of the core elements that are of interest to us.

And that ultimately would come down to is this somebody. That can work with me when I'm, and I'm talking specifically by the way about recruiting and running foreign agents and tasking them to [00:05:00] do, what is the most ludicrous thing on earth really, which is betray their country, and still secrets and the jeopardy attached to all of that, which is in many cases a risk to life, obviously, and not just to them, to their loved ones as well.

So I will be looking at somebody with that real sort of razor sharp focus as to, is this somebody that can actually do this? And I would be looking at key motivators. The word motivation was central to all of this. What is motivating some, somebody, or what could motivate somebody to do this exceptionally high risk job?

And in some cases quite off the sort of off the wall, off the charts type of position. So looking at somebody you've used gut instinct, the phrase we used by the way in MI six was using one's own 10 eye, but same thing essentially. And what is that? There's a large element of [00:06:00] rifle shots deductive reasoning that happened so quickly that sometimes we're not aware of it.

But that's certainly something that people like me were, I would like to say, skilled at doing. And it's potentially not something that can be taught per se. It's something that perhaps is more innate in the individual. But the ability to look at somebody and think, okay for me as an intelligence officer.

What's my way in? What potentially what route can I take to at least forge? What ultimately will be a highly unusual relationship. And I might expand that route in or indeed navigate away from it in due course as I, I glean more information about the person. But certainly choosing that starting point.

Also for your listeners to your point about learning key learning points, I think it's quite important as well to remember regardless of circumstances, we human beings, nothing really has [00:07:00] changed. We haven't evolved much at all over the thousands and thousands of years and beyond, so there are always key drivers within us that we can look for as independent observer.

The, the raison Dre of being a human being, what makes us tick, the key emotions, the key aspirations, the key fears concerns, all of these kind of things. None of that was any different in the world that I operated in. So when looking at people put more crassly, I will be thinking, okay, what's on their mind right now?

What are they thinking about? What are they worrying about? What are they looking for in the future? What's driving them? What are these kind of things, which one can apply in so many other walks of life? So there was nothing different in that respect, apart from the fact that the dial was turned up to the maximum.

Arthur: sometimes there's an incredible book, called confessions of a Sociopath. Some [00:08:00]people, can operate in such a manner whereby they can really mislead people and innately. During the recruitment process, you are at times going to come across certain very skilled people that for whatever reason might mislead you.

Did you come across that ever? Were there any learnings?

Matthew: So if we were to categorize, let's take the sociopath for example, or psychopath, the fragile difference in terms of output. People in the unusual category, the two or 3% or whatever percentage we wanna put on it. Yes, 100%. You would look for that. And to, to your point, yes, I came across that be,

some people who were charming, hugely intelligent, very erudite people that you'd want to spend comp, time with being the company of people who under other circumstances, you could almost say this is somebody I, I could, to, form almost a friendship with.

But I would know because I would be [00:09:00] looking for it and I would be picking up little indicators. This person is framing the world and the people within it in a very different way compared to people who are, for example, not psychopathic or sociopathic or narcissistic. But again, that's something that I would look for.

And then. Think, okay, how can I manage that or can I manage it?

Arthur: and fear. When people take the risks that they did were there surprising parts on how people need support on that journey?

Matthew: not surprising because fear is fear, and of course it can hit us when we don't expect it. Sometimes it can be an unexpected thing but it's innate human emotion. So I will be unsurprised by it because I'm constantly aware of it. I'm aware of it in others. [00:10:00] A large part of what I did.

In terms of human intelligence was as I mentioned, the recruitment of well-placed individuals, foreign nationals, typically in, in target countries. And the concern about their wellbeing was paramount importance. That, that was the key thing for a case officer such as myself and looking for moments when we'd have encounters, looking for moments where nerves were shaken.

And yes, many experiences, many examples to draw on where the braver souls male, female, young or old, all walks of life, all shapes and sizes people who had proven themselves time and time again. Just had that moment. And it can come to us all that moment where they can't do it. Something has internally snapped or maybe [00:11:00] it's been a sort of slow process build up or whatever.

And then it's for me to process that and decide what's the best course of action, key priority would always be my agents, their welfare. To the extent that if I felt that tasking them further would cause them a problem that they couldn't manage them, I would pull the plug. I would say that's it.

I don't want you to go back in there. Where fear had consumed them. That said, of course, again, from a judgment perspective is for me to gauge, is this a temporary thing?

Is this something, is this a bad day essentially? Is this something that we need to just sit on for the moment and return to or is this somebody who is in more layman's speak, just having a bit of a wobble, and if so, can I inspire [00:12:00] within this moment? Can I supply them my strength to rebuild them rebuild their courage and to not overcome fear because it's a difficult thing to do, but at least manage it.

Arthur: There are two things that come to mind. One is just the concept. The wobble moments. Is there a tool that you found quite helpful in getting people out of those moments? And the second thing is there must be certain agents that are just so valuable. To, the likes of MI six that you are so incentivized to a make that, make your asset feel valued, but b, protect their productivity, protect them, or, covering for them and making sure that their life is, is going well as such. Do you feel like you were able to support people , to the correct degrees?

Matthew: so to your latter [00:13:00] point the answer would be yes. I, in terms of the support of people, just to position the thought process I have, but also the one that I know is shared by fellow MI six officer, past and present. Is again the key priority are our foreign agents, as we call them over here, assets as the Americans call them, the gifted amateurs, the people that we recruit to spy on our behalf.

The people that only know us as individuals, they don't know other people in MI six for example, or rarely. So the, what results from that is what I think is an extremely unusual relationship between case officer and agent. I think it's one that is closer than a typical family. For example, it's two people, let's take a sort of figurative, the typical smokey hotel room in Stanbul or something like that. And the [00:14:00] intensity within that relationship is. Something quite remarkable. And it's not really captured it in other walks of life. I think both individuals completely reliant on each other, both typically from very different backgrounds or circumstances or whatever age can be sometimes a factor, gender other things.

But sharing this unique experience to the extent that who we represent almost face away in that encounter, in, in those moments of coming together. I would always know I was an MI six officer, but it was so deeply buried at that moment. And worth mentioning as well, by the way, that to add to the sort of surreal, bizarre aspect of it, my agent would know or have worked out that the name I was using, the identity I was using was all completely false.

And yet they would. Be forgiving of that, see through that [00:15:00] and form a connection with me and inside me. With all of that in play again, my priority in those moments those deeply intense moments would be the person opposite knee. I would never, even if that person had the location of the ticking bomb that was going to court to send that person back in and to try and get the final piece of the jigsaw of that, that ticking bomb, knowing that person was, might need to be executed or similar I would then say, don't go back in.

We'll find another way. If I thought, this would, there was like almost certainly there was likely to be compromised. Again, a slight falsehood really I, in that people like me would exploit or manipulate or similar [00:16:00] just because the objective was so important. The reality was very different.

We, people like me, the trained RA intelligence officers would have to find other route to achieve that objective rather than potentially sacrificing some of them, somebody who is working for us. So that's the latter point. You mentioned your first question. To the point about when somebody's having the wobble and are there any sort of tricks of the trade that one can do?

I guess really with that, again, and it's probably not a very satisfactory answer, but it is a case by case. It's knowing who it is we're dealing with knowing the personality or as much as we can, at least trying to have an understanding of where that person is coming from. But if there's one thing I would say that is very important within any attempts to try to [00:17:00] rebuild confidence, courage, all of that, it is trust it's trying to impart as much truth in the process as possible.

For me to sit there and just for example. I try to be upbeat, optimistic, or, g them up with motivational kind of stuff. But in the process coming across is completely false and detached. That of course can have the opposite effect of however I'm leaning in and saying, look, I understand 'cause I know what it's like.

And if I'm honest with you right now, my heartbeat has gone up to probably 80 to a hundred beats a minute because I'm sensing the jeopardy as well, or words to that effect. If I am demonstrating to the person that actually that despite all the false facade, the alias identity in it and the bizarre circumstances that inside here I'm connecting with them, I think that can go a [00:18:00] long way because of course then it doesn't mean you'll get the result you want, but at least then you are on the same wavelength or the same page in terms of understanding what it is you're dealing with.

And of course within that process then there is a greater likelihood of collaboration, of a sense of we're in this together. And as a result of that, there is the hope or possibility the person feels less isolated and therefore strength can be shared.

Arthur: and pressure you, you the then there, there will be countless high pressure moments. What has that taught you in terms of being able to manage that

Matthew: For. Just to put a question back to you there, are you referring to me or the referring to the people that I used to interact with?

Arthur: for you?

Matthew: For me it was I was hoping you wouldn't [00:19:00] say that because it take that the wrong way, but because that's an odd one for me as a MI six officer, because. The pressure, the process, and let's go back to our word, fear, all of that.

Looking back on it, it was a very odd state of mind in retrospect that I had when I was operating the peak. I had 14 different aliases, which was probably too much, but, and what that means, by the way, each alias, it isn't just a dodgy passport and credit card. It is as much as a full back story, life story as possible, down to little nuggets.

Little minutiae. Who is your. English teacher at the primary school and, which, what's the name of the pub? The street that you don't live in? What beer is on draft in that pub? All this kind of stuff. So you, you have as much depth attached to each alias and doing all that.

Now, when I deployed and use deployment of the aliases overlapped with different operations, which in turn overlapped as [00:20:00] well, it wasn't just a case of one operation at a time, beginning, middle, and end. But whenever I deployed I personally really became that person. I really did, buried inside me was Matthew Dunn, MI six for sure.

But I really did to the extent that if, randomly if somebody called my alias name from across the street, some stranger, I would in instant instinctively turn towards that, that that call. So within that process, I really felt like I was it's wrong to say somebody else because I'd grown into that person.

And what happened as a consequence of that was a heightened in my mind, a heightened ability to deal with process problem solving and unusual. The unexpected and the unexpected that the unexpected always occurred and one had to be able to react to it. But also the [00:21:00] same applies to fear. I never, looking back despite stuff really felt fear that much.

I think I was so focused on what I was doing, so focused on the operation and the intricacies attached to that. And it became almost like a problem to solve and the thrill attached to it as well. The unusual components of it all, everything. The fear didn't really feature in my mind. I was to reiterate very attuned to it, aware of it in terms of the people I interacted with, but for myself I was almost had a sense of I was where I should be. I haven't come to for, firm conclusions as to all of that, but just to flag to you, it is something I'm aware of when I look back on it now, as to an unusual state of mind.

Arthur: Yeah clearly, there's a lot of instances where it's clear that people [00:22:00] do, change with change. We are we're adaptive creatures. And COVID is quite a good example of that on how people just they have, if you have to do something you get, you get on and do it.

But regardless of that, there are innate human tendencies and natures that can't really be ignored. So one being, just the nature of I do think that it is, it's somewhat a human nature to need to a certain degree to share about what you are up to, to, to people. And. It's, it is that connection.

And I'm not sure how to translate, how that connection manifests, but when you are in the field and you, you can't be sharing these things. Fine, you'll be getting used to that. But is there an environment, maybe a work where you could release these unusual things?

'Cause you can't really exactly be writing in a journal about about these unusual circumstances.

Matthew: Yeah. I'm thinking it through [00:23:00] actually about what you're saying and again, very unusual. So if there's a, for MI six officer, for example, the same will apply, by the way for so many other walks of life that deal with extreme things, including, for example, healthcare or military or police you mentioned earlier.

That's the kind of thing, the safety valve for us, if there was indeed any kind of safety valve would be coming back to the likes of head office or something like that where you're in a controlled environment and you can meet up with people who are doing similar. You might not have seen them for several months or longer, whatever.

They're, dashing around here, there and everywhere around the world. And you meet up and you're suddenly on the same wavelength and you can, you can't portray details about the operations you're doing because that's all ringfence. But a general understanding of, this is a like-minded person and they've been doing similar wherever it is.

So all of that. But what is making me pause for thought a little bit is your your observations, which I grew with to a large extent about being in the field and was worth noting that, intelligence officers, NY six [00:24:00] offices in particular, we operate alone. Typically, we're not going out in teams or whatever, or with support or backup or anything like that.

So the people we're talking to, are the people that we are running or we're targeting or whatever. These are the people. And so any potential to form bonds or to release information or to feel more relaxed into the whole process would be a highly unusual one because at no point are you not working.

So you're operating on all sorts of different levels as a completely, I was about to say as a completely different person, but the aliases intelligence officers choose tend to have some components of who we really are as much as possible. I, it would always be down to the intelligence officer as to, how an alias would be crafted.

Yes. Depending on the operation, but also the alias had to be something that, for example, I could carry off. I would choose [00:25:00] personas vocations or the rest of it that I felt comfortable with, that I felt, yeah, this is something I can do. And also it matches the operational requirements. So what that then allowed in theater, in, in the operational environment is yes, there were opportunities for me to almost release bits of myself in the process, but those bits of myself were always wrapped and coated and this, that, and the other.

Arthur: Yeah I'm, and there are plenty of ways you can be creative about, how one can release that. In terms of what you're referencing you, you were very privileged to have, been working with all sorts of people from different places. Are there some people who you came across who were a particular inspiration to you?

In terms of a and what does that inspiration look like tangibly? Is it about values? I'd love [00:26:00] to hear. May. Maybe it was an action that just completely shocked you and you were just completely taken aback and you've always just looked back at that moment and that person and how they acted in a situation and just been and you reference it sometimes when you have your own decisions in life about how you want to behave or act.

Matthew: I don't think inspiration yeah, to your last point there about okay, that's gonna inform how I am particularly there's a sort of tourism, sometimes they use, I dunno if they still do it, but in MI six recruitment, one of the questions that's just asked is, who do you look up to? And the correct answer to that is no one, because, to look up to somebody, means you perceive yourself to be beneath that person.

And so I've mentioned that simply that one has to be cautious with their sort of, wholesale inspiration and what it can do to oneself. But I think for me I was. Inspired or energized or call it what you wish, but I think [00:27:00] people grabbing life, grabbing a sense that, yeah, let's go for it.

Let's do it because, we're on this planet once. And what we're looking to do is truly remarkable. Probably near impossible in some cases, but why not? What would happen to me in those circumstances when I was in front of somebody who I'd like to say is was like-minded that I would it would invigorate me.

I would think I'm in the right I'm in the right company here. I'm with the right person. I'm with a like-minded soul. It would actually, make me happy. In that respect. Different ways that can manifest itself. Of course, it could be going back to our point about courage and, fear and o overcoming fear or trying to overcome fear.

Sometimes it could be a moment of that somebody coming to, self-realization, yes, I can do this. Yes the old me [00:28:00] would've walked away from this by now, but the new me is actually gonna take that further. Step or two, whatever. To see that, that self-realization, that, that process of potentially correcting something in a new way would give me joy, give me inspiration.

But so many different outcomes I think there in terms of what would invigorate me in those circumstances. But I think ultimately. I was always overjoyed when I was in the presence of people that were grasping the nettle and applying themselves

Arthur: And talk to me about that point around, not, the answer is no one. When who do you look up to?

Matthew: Is, it's really to do with I, I think really to do with a perception of self. MI six looks for people who are, they probably don't use this phrases probably my phrase, but really are generals of themselves. They are the [00:29:00] leaders. They're people who regardless of age and obviously bear in mind that, one can join my sixth Raven University, so you can be a young, naive 21, 20 2-year-old.

And it is quite feasible, but within a few months after training you can be set opposite a hardened, grizzled 60, 65-year-old person an operational setting. And within that you need to have a sense that actually you are that person's superior. You have that leadership thing there.

But if your starting point is one of, alright, this is over, over a little bit where you, what you're saying, but is one of all subjugation or whatever you are, further down the pecking order, then of course you can't do the job. So my six in particular is looking for people who are, without being arrogant by the way, very negative trait, but do have that self [00:30:00] confidence and that general sense of.

I will for sure draw inspiration and learn and adapt and all of that, but I won't have a starting point that I'm second best.

Arthur: Fascinating. Do you, and in that light that it's, it's quite hard to be aware of how. own ins. It's very easy to walk into a room and, end up being with people who are very similar to you or, see, see the mirror of yourself and someone else, and therefore like them or think positive things about them.

But in many instances, the opposite can be true and very different. People can have marvelous qu qualities certainly in recruitment and, if you have a team, you need different people doing different things. So my question would be, how do you limit your bias nature with that?

Do you feel like we are good at seeing how people are [00:31:00] different.

Matthew: Yeah, I think to, if I understand your question correctly, it's one of how do we bend with the wind? How do we assimilate, how do we moderate our, I know as you say, our biases, our, with likes and dislikes and all of that, and what are we looking for? That's life, isn't it?

That's getting along and, we've all gotta earn a buck. So if it's in a work situation we've gotta be minded that there's, all different shapes and sizes, walks of life, and all the rest of it. And so to what end. To bowl into that room full of different people and throw your values and ideas and judgements about, I think it, it probably serves no one least of all the person doing that.

I'm, how do I think about all of that? I'm fascinated by people, first of all. And, and we're all, [00:32:00]because we're people, we've all got, different traits and, characteristics and things like that. Yes, there are people that I encounter as we all do that I, in a nanosecond or after a period of time, just think you are not my kind of person at all, and you never will be, and unless I have a particular reason for needing to be alongside that person, I'll probably steer, steer clear of them because they serve no purpose to me. But purpose by the way, it sounds very forthright, but it this same could apply to friendships, for example, or whatever we want to get out of

Arthur: Yeah. Not nice people. Yeah. Or whatever.

Matthew: at these stage and I think also by the way, age helps as well. I'm at the ground at age of 56 now, whereas one gets older, you become more at peace with it all. You think okay, there's the percentage thing isn't there that out there in the world.

There's loads of great people, loads of lovely people, loads of people that, operate somewhere in the middle. And then of course there are other the nasties out there kind of thing. And it's, how do we navigate [00:33:00] all of that and what do we need to do within it all?

Arthur: What have you found hardest? Clearly you've touched on how important it's for people to be confident in themselves and what is there something in you that you've struck, you've slightly struggle with that maybe it's a weakness per se, that you but has also taught you a lot about yourself in in, in other ways.

Matthew: So you're asking me, Arthur, to go on air about what my weaknesses are? Just to clarify. No, I think, yeah, self-awareness is hugely important. And I'm, again, this is something over time, perhaps it's not so prevalent in youth when we're desperate to prove ourselves in life and all the rest of it.

But as wisdom slowly but surely kicks in I'm very aware of going back to my point, but of likes and dislikes and and who I am as a human being. [00:34:00] And I have, because I have because it's who I am. Certain principles, certain rules attached to my behavior I would never go out of my way to hurt somebody, for example, or deliberately cause 'em distress and things like that.

So my behavior is a reflection, very much of who I'm as an individual. But in terms of, okay, that's one thing, but okay, what space do I want to operate in? Where do I want to be at any given time? Who do I want to be encountering? All that kind of thing. That is a personal choice that will reflect on me as an individual.

What I like to do. Without giving too much detail, because it's not me, but it's I thoroughly enjoy, for example, intelligent conversation. I enjoy people who are aspirational. I enjoy people, motivated have dreams or whatever interesting components of their life.

I, I thrive off of [00:35:00] that of equal measure importance to me though of people with huge hearts, I tend not to gravitate towards people who are callous in nature and things like that. Now I mention all of that because that's who I am and other people will be different potentially, but because I'm aware of that informs my behavior and allows me to be a little bit relaxed about, okay.

If I met somebody and didn't get on with them, I can almost say to myself privately that's because of X, Y, Z reasons. Okay. And it's okay. That's because of who you are, Matthew, and they are, you know who they are. So I think there's a, an element of being at peace with oneself as a result of that.

Arthur: speaking of being at peace, you are an incredibly successful author and what a journey that must have been for you, from writing those first words for your first book to now being an incredibly established author. Tell us about that and I'm interested because when you first started [00:36:00] that first paragraph, you weren't to know that you were to sell over a million copies.

Matthew: Yeah, it was bonkers. We'll certainly start with. F because what had happened was, and in terms of my, my, my writing was as a child is, I was a voracious reader, adored books pre-digital obviously. My, I was had far in the belly adventurer by nature always looking over the horizon.

And books were my portal to that world. My way in. Anything a lot of the classics obviously, but also obscure 19th century, Seafair, Intels, whatever they would be, I hoover them up and if, and in tandem my writing. I loved creative writing and remember, school days doing it and getting awards for it.

Then life got in the way and went off and actually lived my adventures, did all of that. Then what happened was there came a point where. Due to circumstances, I thought okay, I've thought about [00:37:00] writing a novel, now I've got no excuses how they go. And that's precisely what I did.

Completely naive really to the process, apart from thinking, okay, I'm, I think I'm a good storyteller. I think I'm a good writer, so let's have a go and did that. And went in the traditional route essentially. I didn't leverage off my background or anything didn't have any contacts for that matter.

So sent off my draft manuscript blindly to I think probably about 10 liter reagents in London. Got the usual number of rejections. And then there was one literary agent that got back to me and said, yeah, just meet for lunch. And it went on from there. Now, if there are any aspiring authors listening to this, I can tell you the process does not end there because, then there's rewrites.

It's re, edits, you name it. And then if you lucky enough, as I was to get publishing deal, [00:38:00] in my case it was two publishers for geo geographical reasons. Then there can be further rewrites and further tweaks and all that kind of stuff. And so one has to be very flexible in the whole process, which I was, because my driver was to get a published novel.

But to your point about that opening paragraph and again, just doing it I was just, I wasn't aware thinking my, this mean, whatever I write now, could one day end up in a published book. I thought, no, just go for it. Just write your story, and do this. And it was actually a joy to do.

I think for me. The first novel was a case of ignorance. Is bliss the hardest one? And I know this has been said a gazillion times from other authors and also musicians with their albums and such. The second one was more complex, second book, because you are slightly more aware of the things and second guessing stuff and everything else like that, then it gets easier.

But yes, it was a whole process. But I think for me, the starting point of [00:39:00] writing the first novel was just a case of write, lock yourself in a room and you do it in isolation and see what the end result is. So there was no, for me, there was no real pain attached to it. If anything, it became in itself an adventure.

Arthur: and what is the absolute joy in that process?

Matthew: The absolute joy for me. I suppose it must vary per person, but for me the absolute joy, I think is the finished product, the finished book when it's finally done. And cer certainly seeing, there are moments, obvious moments such as seeing it on a bookstore shelf or something like that.

But also for me as well, the joy when people read it, I think for me as an author, I love the process. I love storytelling, but of course I need an, I need people to, I need an audience. I need that, I'm not doing it for my own sake or some vanity project, [00:40:00] whatever. Just little snippets, little things when people say, I read your book and loved it, and little anecdotes, they come up with Reddit on a plane and, it's funny or whatever it will be.

And I, it then tells me, okay, yeah, it was worth it because joy for sure. But there is also despite what I said about doing the first book, but subsequently there's also a lot of pain because it's hard work and it can be frustrating and all the rest of it. Parallels there in play about, for example, I know gestation period and then get finally giving birth and the elation and you forget all the trials and tribulations in the process, thing.

So you know, it is a slog and all the rest of it, but I think the payoff is wonderful. I think, the, I'm really genuinely believe in. The joy and positive virtue of storytelling communication. Yes, of course, but specifically storytelling. Age of time immemorial. We've been doing this in some guys or other various reasons for that that we don't need to go into [00:41:00] necessarily, but is such a positive force in my mind.

Arthur: talk to us about. That, when you hit that wall and make, and it could be for a variety of different reasons. What happens for Matthew the bestselling author? Who are you calling? What are you what are the, what's the negative voice, if there is one? Or maybe what's the positive voice? How do you jump over?

Matthew: everyone has different coping me mechanisms. You are all familiar with the word writer's block. I've never suffered writer's block or ideas. All the rest of it have never been a problem. What I have. Encountered frequently and as all writers do, it's days where, you set off, start out with good intentions, open up the laptop, or turn on the pc, whatever it is, and stare at the screen and thinking, I'm not feeling it.

 For whatever reason. You got the ideas, you know where you're going with it. We're just not feeling it for whatever reason. And fairly quickly I worked out how to deal [00:42:00] with that, recognize the symptoms and very often the solution to it will be walk away, go and do something else. Go on a walk or just deal with your other stuff.

You've gotta do your daily chores or whatever. Or just deal with something completely different, some other work project or hook up with pals or do something different. Just do a sort of circuit breaker. Do not under any circumstances, sit there and force yourself to write. I have tried that in the early years or stages at least of my writing career.

The problem with that is then the next day, look at what I, I would look at what I'd written and it would be substandard, so I would delete the lot. So it's a day waste, which then potentially put me back a day when what I should have done in as early stages is just gone off for eight, 10 hours and done something completely different and then come to it Now trying to define what it actually is going on there.

I don't know. But it is a [00:43:00] creative process. It's one that it can be intellectually draining can be exhausting. And so I think. There will naturally be days when you think I'm not firing cylinders today. As long as one is objective focus, which I am very much I would think, okay, that's okay.

There's some fat in the process. I can allow myself some time out now and then come back to it. If I've never, ever suffered, however, a sustained period of inability that would be a very different category and I would, wouldn't necessarily know what I would do in that circumstance, but having an off, an off, off day here, there, whatever, I think that's fine.

That's the way we are. And sometimes we just need to put a, our brain in a splint and let it recover.

Arthur: And with your stories that you've written, what's your dream with this? Do you want different

Matthew: Yeah. I.

Arthur: or [00:44:00] do you want to continue the path of writing?

Matthew: Yeah, I'm diversifying or have diversified now. My focus now is more, is primarily television and theater in terms of storytelling, so script writing and I'm working on some key big projects on that level at the moment. Storytelling, I've written 14 novels halfway through my 15th which is on pause at the moment.

But it's a cracking by my own standards. I don't think it's a cracking story. So I will contin continue with it, but I've reached a stage where there's some other projects that I want to pursue. As long as I'm doing storytelling, as long as I'm sitting there with the blank sheet of paper thinking, okay, what can I do with this, then I'm happy.

So the medium can vary, from a novel to the screen, to the stage, whatever or, indeed radio, [00:45:00]whatever it will be. But the the output is similar. So aspirations with the novels, nothing beyond what they're achieving, which is hopefully for people to read them.

And my direction onwards remains 100% creative. That's who I am. That's how I was born. And you haven't asked me the question but people, it sometimes is asked about the. The aspect of creativity and MI six and I think there is a huge link there. Because, I was somebody prior to joining MI six who was by nature a creative it's the way I think thinking through the art of the possible, all of that.

And that was a massive, going back to your word influence, that was a massive influence on my ability to operate as an intelligence officer as a spine.

Arthur: Matthew, what a pleasure it's been. We're gonna move now to the quickfire questions and [00:46:00] which will begin with three things you get joy

Matthew: three things I two, two instantly come to mind, which is cooking hill walking.

Good conversation.

Arthur: A mantra you want to embrace now would be.

Matthew: Live every day as if it's your last

Arthur: A favorite book, themore Artist, that isn't obvious.

Matthew: book artist. There isn't obvious. That's the kicker though, isn't it?

Arthur: I don't wanna make your life easy.

Matthew: no, that is the kicker. That isn't obvious. I'll go artist. This is on the spot by the way, artists. So I'll dig into music because it's probably an easier one for me to go a little bit more obscure or music than published literature, et cetera.

Independent indie band, partly uk, one from the states, I think early nineties called the God Machine, did a, an album, which I think is probably one of the all time best called scenes [00:47:00] from the second story, which is, I think a work of genius,

Arthur: Something you want to learn more about.

Matthew: oh my goodness, people. A constant odyssey journey to to learn about who we are as a human race, what we're doing where we're leading, how, what is our position on this planet. We are passengers here and we won't be around forever. So it's the exploration of that. Also related as well, exploration of the brain.

I'm fascinated by the human brain. We know so little about it. In talking to professor of New Neurology, fairly recently saying, probably at best, eight to 10% understood. So that, that, that adventure, that journey as well,

Arthur: How do you get over a tough meeting moment or period of time?

Matthew: I'll put it in a box and move on without a care in the world.

Arthur: a place you want to go to.

Matthew: Place I want to go. See, I was there last night, one beloved London, and it's [00:48:00]bizarre. Part of London, this is Central London, but just to I remember waiting for a meeting I was just sat outside and it was just fairly busy, ordinary street position.

But I was looking at it and asking myself, why is it that London is so in my bloodstream? It's just the feel of it all the rest of it. The place I want to be. I was there last night.

Arthur: Wonderful. Matthew, it's been such a privilege to, to have you on and to two creatives that you've linked to being similar in with the creative element in both. . Thank you so much. Gosh.

Matthew: My pleasure. Thank you for having me.