Eating insects: YumBug Founder Leo Rubbra on taking insects mainstream

Arthur: [00:00:00] So here we have Leo founder of Yum Bug Yamba, one of the biggest brands in the insect food market in the uk.

Leo,

you are a bold man.

Thank you. How many people

Do we know who have set up a such a kind of trailblazing business in such a new space, can you unpack that for us?

Leo: How are you so bold and brave? I've had no choice. Arthur, I've had no choice of being forced into a corner. I joke but there is an element of truth in it, in the sense that I was a very disgruntled architect. I never qualified, I can't really say that, but I was a, I was an aspiring architect and frankly realized that it wasn't the path for me.

So it was the certainty of, climbing a ladder I knew I didn't want to be on Yeah. Versus doing something else. And I think I was very lucky in that I got into architecture originally. Knowing what I wanted, I. To use architecture for. So I saw inherently architecture as a tool rather than a [00:01:00] thing to, to go after in and of itself,

which was very

important.

Because it meant that I could look at it. I look at what I was doing within architecture and saying whether that was moving on my goals or not.

So it gives them color to what

that means. Yeah.

Yeah.

Actually I spoke to this dude yesterday

after 15 years

Since we had

a first conversation that changed my life.

I left school, had no idea what I was gonna do.

And I was looking at.

Going to the Army. Loved the idea of hanging out with lads and like firing guns.

Then there was

A tradesman, so did my plumbing

course and was looking at that as a route.

And there was all these university courses from international relations to economics to,

I just had no idea what I was doing basically. And this guy was like, look,

Do you

wanna go to the pub?

And I was like,

why?

And

basically in that sort of half an hour conversation, sifting a J two O

we ended up mapping the things that,

Fascinated me

that I had never been [00:02:00] formalized and written down before.

And uncovering themes that I was interested in.

So the things that sort of,

the three themes that sort of came out of that was design.

So I loved working with my hands as a kid. I loved sort of model making and

building things.

Then there was the environment,

I was just fascinated by how do you move,

The environmental issues forward.

And people, I'd grown up in, in all of the,

in 13 different countries, mostly,

Developing countries as war in Sri Lanka,

Cambodia, Bangladesh, all these places, countries in Africa.

And so how do you help people?

That, that was just part of my psyche,

and,

then that was really helpful because it focused the question as to what's going to help me deliver on these things.

And that immediately meant being a plumber

wasn't relevant.

It meant,

Going into the army probably wasn't great for

the.

On my environmental thing, I might be having fun, but

yeah,

I've committed to wanting to move the environmental thing

forward. Yeah.

And architecture came out as a sort of intersection of all of

[00:03:00] these things.

I reread all my uni applications. It was all architecturally focused.

And I ended up within architecture, taking a more sort suburban

route. And I realized this is a,

Very much

a tangent, but that was because I wanted to have sort of the maximum impact on these questions as possible.

And throughout my sort of brief architectural career working in different kinds of practices,

That was the inherent measure,

Of

am I moving the needle on the environment or social

issues.

That actually gave me the confidence to say,

this isn't right for me.

This isn't the tool that I'm gonna be best.

Able to employ to affect those things.

So to answer your question about

being bold and brave it's

A consequence, a sequence of things that has led me to,

To land

on insects, really. And I should say at a similar time, so this is

2018,

when I left architecture,

Tesla

was the number one car in the world,

And that was very inspiring because it wasn't

the

world's best electric car,

It was the world's best [00:04:00] car.

And I was like, wow,

You can really align,

A social good,

From first principles that you know, something that the world needs. We need to get off

gasoline.

And here was a solution that aligned with the business model and doing good in the world.

And there are millions of these

problems.

I

just

needed to pick one.

And that's where sort of bugs came off. It's an unsolved issue.

As I say, I've grown up in all these countries. Over 80% eat in sex. So

we love prawns in the west, why can't we be eating this? So

I

felt

It's weird to say it's not the, it is not the number one problem that, that I care about.

There are others, but I think what was really, what's been really important for me is just to

commit. Because commitment has allowed

me to remove distraction

and say, plumbing isn't right. The army isn't right.

Dilly dally isn't

right.

I'm, doing bugs.

As a result of all of these things, I've ended up, on this crusade to take bugs mainstream, which I'm very much

still on.

Arthur: What a goal. We're [00:05:00] very aware of the.

The

negative impact on the environment that

eating meat has.

And

Leo: you

must

Arthur: have met people

who have done very well

In

the space of

pushing

Leo: the world to more

of a

sustainable place.

I've certainly

met a lot of people who are working on it.

Arthur: Yeah.

Leo: Varying degrees of success.

The guy that's been the most influential for me is

Musk.

He's gone

absolutely a one now

It is quite sad actually. Because,

Personally how much of a sort of inspiration he was

That you can really build these amazing businesses that, that new society forward and give people hope and inspiration.

Think

beyond themselves.

 I'm very lucky in the

sense

that

we're in London. I think one of, one of the hub

best places on earth to interact with great entrepreneurs.

A lot of my friends are entrepreneurs.

There's a, there's an optimism

of

being an entrepreneur. There's a can-do attitude.

There's a sense that the world can be better.

And, that's a necessary starting point to actually go and do something about

it.

Okay.

And,

Arthur: And the [00:06:00] environment.

What, 'cause some

people really

care, make it

part of lives. think

think consciously

about

their,

what

they do and how that

impacts

environment. How

you come to

caring about it?

It's a great question. And I don't fully know the answer, but

in retrospect, working backwards,

I

honestly, I think the first time I really,

It,

Struck me, was watching

Al Gore's

film,

What do you remember what it was called? I'm

blanking. No. Al Gore.

oh God, I'll remember in a few minutes, but so

The vice president of the United

almost president, right? Al Gore.

It became a champion for the environment.

And he

produced this film in 2004,

About climate change. and

This is the last chance we have to like, save

the environment and

Society, in an existential sense.

And

obviously,

Overing it maybe to some degree that's what critics would [00:07:00] say, but that sort of really stuck,

Struck me and stuck with me,

That we've gotta do something about this problem. We are, we're

designing and

building,

Civilization to be incompatible with our planet,

And that's a design choice.

It's, it doesn't have to be, it's not inevitable, right? We've just built

stuff wrong. So how do we fix that?

Obviously I wasn't thinking this as a 10-year-old or

whatever.

I was thinking like, oh, it's

really sad that

we're killing the polar bears

and we don't have

to, but I think that's quite important. We don't have

to,

We can do, we can make different choices.

That, and politically

it's actually quite sad that it's been a zero sum thing,

Yeah.

It's a, it's totally not, there's a great book, cradle to Cradle,

All about how these design decisions that we make and,

We can build products

that are beneficial to the environment.

We can build cities that are good for biodiversity,

That solve the housing crisis.

So why don't we,[00:08:00]

super

interesting and

change, like

getting people to change their behavior.

We were

talking earlier about how

can you.

lower the barriers to doing doing something, testing something

Leo: out?

Talk

to us about

the

journey of

Arthur: Young bug.

Leo: This is,

to some degree as you've heard, this is a bit of a a stumble upon,

It, I didn't start out

My career

thinking I'll be taking bugs

mainstream. But you heard a bit of the backstory there.

This is

really a lockdown baby.

And,

a mixture of all those things, of personally happening at the same time, looking way out of architecture.

But my co-founder at the time, Aaron who's now left

Really because he became vegan. So when we first worked on this, he wasn't vegan.

And,

One of our slogans is Better Meat because it's a meat.

He's an entomologist by background. Okay. An insect scientist.

I was at the time working with food brands,

And we just had this fascination about why

aren't we eating this perfectly good food in the west?

As I say, 80% of countries over [00:09:00] 80% eat insects.

And

just fascinated by this question of what we accept as.

Okay.

as acceptable. And cultural norms

That are totally made up.

Which food is,

It's actually quite nuts how ingrained it is in people's

understanding of truth.

When you poke at,

Saying actually this cheese could go with like this.

They're like,

no, it can't.

Like, why not? Do you go somewhere else? That's exactly the pairing.

We just, learn that things are the way they are. But it's cultural, these are stories we tell ourselves about what's okay.

A prawn is perfectly fine to eat, but you can't eat

crickets, but you can't eat land prawns.

You can only eat sea prawns.

Why?

There is no good answer.

That's

the inception of the fascination.

Why can't we be eating this food that is better for us? This is the most nutritious protein on earth.

So

much better to the environment. You're looking at 2000 times [00:10:00] less, CO2,

2000,

A kilo of beef.

kilo of, okay. Our crickets 2000 times as CO2.

And it tastes great.

There, there's a reason that all these countries eat insects, not because they have to.

People are actively thinking, I want

crickets for tea,

When they can have pork and all this other stuff.

Why? Because it tastes good.

That was the inception of the fascination.

Obviously insects haven't

ever really been mainstream in the west.

We've got some sort of ideas and theories around why that is.

Really

because.

Insects to

more temperate climates are always associated with like death and feces,

Whereas if you go to

warmer places,

So the imagery and the association in

the west and in colder places is you only see in

disgusting places. Whereas

in

warmer countries, you'll see like a beautiful grasshopper in a field.

If you go to Japan, like it's actually quite a beautiful thing, like a [00:11:00] caterpillar,

And

you don't look at that and think

disgusting. Whereas you look at a maggot crawling outta someone's eyeball

like a corpse Yeah. And think that's

disgusting,

so I'm not

gonna eat

that.

I think that's probably where

That cultural sort of narrative started.

Arthur: Talk,

talk, us

about

the

benefits.

Leo: The reason I'm in this is for sustainability.

It's got, as I say, 2000 times produces 2000 times less. CO2, you're looking at about 20 times less land, a

per kilo

Of meat produced a fraction of the water.

That's sort of 5,000 times less water than traditional meat farming.

They're the most efficient converters of feed

to

meat. In the world. So the amount of feed that you give to the animal,

It's

almost one to one with insects. It's like one, 1.2 kilos to one kilo

of product.

Whereas you're looking at, over 10 to one

for some of these other animals.

So 10 kilos feed produces one kilo of

meat.

Arthur: What your goal is to be

[00:12:00] while pushing

people to

far

more,

Crickets,

To

be eaten. That's quite

a complex

challenge opportunity.

Are

there

there experiments that you have in the pipeline on trying to push that onto the agenda?

You right now you sell 'em

To, to restaurants. It can be

in

tacos.

Have you experimented with snacks or having it as a supplement,

for example?

There

some experiments you have up your

sleeve that you feel are exciting?

Leo: The whole thing has been in an experiment. Yeah. I think that's important to say.

We're getting answers as to what

we need to do to take this mainstream.

And that's taken years, frankly.

We started this in,

2021 when full-time 2022. So it's been,

Four years since we really start really having a go at this of understanding

this question of

what's gonna take parts mainstream. And we're, still

testing. .

In terms of what's exciting,

This whole sort of go to market strategy has been centered around,

How do you

Convert someone?

How do you, 'cause we're simultaneously [00:13:00] creating a market whilst trying to supply it,

right. Whilst

trying to sell into it.

You create a market by making people think they want to eat bugs, right?

And so

how does that happen?

The

thesis has been centered around delivering great first experiences.

'cause we've very well tested that once you deliver a delicious plate of food,

People are,

Very quick to shift

their mindset around.

Crickets. Specifically

Some of these other insects are harder, like mealworm, anything worm people don't like as much.

So how do you deliver these good first experiences?

And restaurants are

A really good way to do that,

Because it's consistent,

People are out for fun, the

so it's

An additional story,

A fun thing, especially if you a few drinks in.

So

The last

1824 months has been focused on

Making food service work.

The challenge that we've run into

is we're still sideline as novelty

and as much as we're getting [00:14:00] mainstay listings,

but,

It's

not

enough, frankly.

Because

most of these listings are specials. So we're on for,

A summer,

And really what we need as a business, we're not a bug

charity, we're not

just creating this awareness For nothing.

We need recurring revenue.

So

the,

question has shifted slightly from how do you deliver these good first experiences to how

do you get people to eat this regularly? And frankly,

Being a novelty in a restaurant isn't a great way to do that.

So we're pulling back

from

the restaurant strategy

And thinking about,

What is a product that people can use at home? Yeah. Still delivers a good

experience. Fascinating.

But we're really solving for,

what is this, 10 out of 10 retail

product? Okay.

Arthur: Okay. So back into

the

consumer.

Absolutely.

Okay. Yes.

Yeah.

So, that's where sort of all the excitement is now

Is, what does that product look like? Yeah.

We don't,

we've got [00:15:00] ideas. So what we've got here is a

mince that people can cook with.

But there are ideas around, do we make this into a meat

source, like a chili con carne that people can,

Cook up

themselves?

What is the packaging,

How do we talk about it on pack to maximize rate of sale?

Certain things like,

can we make this ambient stable?

Where

is it being positioned in the, in, is it frozen? Is it chilled?

Is it like in a jar?

And, in an

ambient, stable

shelf.

So many.

So

yeah, so many kind of things will work

out.

Leo: So,

Arthur: Perception, consumer perception is

a fascinating

one.

And how,

For me, an interesting,

Idea, think about, it's sometimes one,

a

really small change in product or messaging can just lead a business from

heading towards failure

to,

Hit, hitting enormous success. That was an example of a.

Arthur: Make

your own cake,

Pack package,

Sold in retail and it wasn't doing well at all.

They had all

the ingredients. All you needed to do is

Leo: do is add water

Arthur: and they would just want sending anything. [00:16:00] They decided to take out,

Certain ingredients that meant that people would have

to

add a few

eggs

at home.

And

suddenly overnight this business

just

massively took

off. Can

you of

businesses,

That

are similar to

that, where they've just been messaging,

Putting out

one

message behind the product and why people should,

Buy

that

product

and that

shift has created

success.

Leo: The

one that's obvious just because it's,

I've become quite close to the team is Mouse.

 They've got quite an interesting sort of brand story. Their inflection point was

content in,

Showing the performance of the cases

of their products.

I dunno if you've seen the videos, but they throw the phones up in the air super high or they drop it from hot air balloons and,

helicopters and

actually from

space.

They sent

their phone up.

Yeah.

And the phones

survive. And that was the infection point in

their business because

That, that those videos performed so well. They ly had a mechanic that worked. It

meant that [00:17:00] when

they

showed people that video and just

added a Shop now button. . Under it they would make sales and it was profitable,

it

was

very

much an inflection point before then.

There, wasn't profitability on a unique

economic basis or,

Lifetime value acquisition cost basis.

But after that, and they're still doing it,

They're still chucking stuff out

from like these really insane heights and

stuff survives.

, They've built their entire brand around performance,

Because that seems to be What

What drives them a as a brand and what people are

interested in.

Yeah. And it's interesting sort of that relationship between

marketing, like the messaging that's landing

Yeah. And then what they're there,

there then doubling down on as a brand.

Yeah. Interesting.

With very much pre that step and

we are not,

Weirdly thinking too much about scale right now.

The thing that we, that I'm trying to get right is actually

Very,

Small scale, like frankly what we're [00:18:00] trying to do is drive a really good rate of sale in a handful of targeted

shops. So on a,

Shop

Unit, economic basis, we're doing very well.

We understand what the

playbook

is.

. Can we work in an organic shop in

Islington, because if

We can't work in a Tesco in Barnsley,

Where the average person is,

Has

no

idea about what this is so

can we make

it

work in, in, in very targeted retail

locations,

get this to a 10 out of 10 product.

We're quite

confident that people love it.

Just some sort of numbers there. We're selling like a pack every five

minutes Really.

Which,

like blew my mind.

Yeah.

And I get chased down by, by customers every day wanting more.

'cause

how we started was setting up in a gorilla style in gyms we go to,

We went to like our local Pure gym and

we've got a really high protein product. Can we, give some out to your customers? And the manager's

yeah, great.

'cause they've, they're,

they've, been told by head office that they need to get some [00:19:00] activations going at the Pure Gym.

So we set up this foldout table and we just start selling them,

In the gym.

Not allowed,

but that's what we did.

And

it was just insane. Like once, once people were trying these samples, just how

we just sold out. Yeah. Like

within

half an hour or

something. Just tell,

Arthur: you've done there.

'cause a big value add that you push is the

amount of protein

in

the

product, right? Yeah. Yeah.

And

And then what's the analogy around startups? If you are, you, if you build products that people

quite

like to have it's

gonna

be a difficult

path. But if you build a product that people need and

quite literally puts out

fires, then suddenly it's a whole

different

Game.

So you've gone straight to people who are desperate, those people who are desperate for

that

Leo: protein and they

want

practically.

Yes. They

Arthur: don't wanna be eating,

Huge quantities

to, to

achieve

that protein

Leo: goal.

Yeah. Are you a vitamin or are you a

painkiller?

And, for

the longest time we weren't sure.

And it's actually quite interesting that

because we've also tested in

what

we call spit and sawdust gyms, you got proper

bodybuilders

like [00:20:00] power lifters.

They're not interested is because they've got a solution.

They're like, I've, I

already prepped my

chicken

breast.

the people who are interested are the young professionals who are

I've made an year's resolution to start going to the gym and I've signed up for High Rocks.

Arthur: We,

Leo: what we have been doing is popping up in these gyms and this is why

They're all chasing me down. Yeah. So all of these guys who've had one,

I'd had one literally before walking in here.

People were like,

I'm

my number

must be somewhere, but I'm getting WhatsApps from all these gym people who found us in their local gym somehow one time. And they're like, how the fuck can I get another?

And that's been just amazing because as

an indicator

for product market fit I walked into an office

this first time it's ever happened,

Six weeks

ago.

And three people.

We're eating Yum. Bug for lunch

separate. They didn't know

each

other.

and I

was like,

this is

nuts.

Cause I'd never seen the [00:21:00] product out in the wild

before.

That was

in short itch in a coworking space. So super targeted, but

as a leading indicator for, can do people like

The product.

Is their product market fit? That's just been insane.

As I say, what we need to get work to

work

is

can this sit

on a shelf?

And work. And we don't have answers to that yet. So April is when we'll be on shelf.

So this out

by April

you Nourish communities

is where you can get it.

Arthur: One thing that is

a

real kind of clear

takeaway about your business and you as a person, you're amazing at

Leo: marketing.

Arthur: And

with your presence on

on social media you've

got some really big hitters to, to back your

Leo: business. Talk

to

Arthur: about that, because raising money is,

as

everyone

knows, is incredibly

difficult. And

the fact that you've got these highly successful people to,

Leo: Back you, talk to

us about

Arthur: that and

what

that's meant for

you.

Leo: Yeah.

[00:22:00] The,

what can I

say about fundraising?

It's such a networking game.

It's

The hardest

coldest sales outreach ever.

At, the start, right?

But

It really just start we didn't know anyone, in lockdown. It was just us in a bedroom with an idea. Yeah.

And we just started reaching out

to people

With, I

should say I think decent

enough pictures in like a line or two.

That was maybe like the key on lock. A lot of people love sending

like t LDRs,

we sent like a couple of lines. We're taking

bugs.

Mainstream

gonna be massive market.

Do you want a chat?

Arthur: And sorry

for

bugging

Leo: you.

Yeah.

There might have been a, there's

c was certain, certainly a pun

in there. But that was

enough of a hook

for

enough people. When

I say enough,

there was

one key person.

Giles Branch. Shout out to Giles.

He's founder of Epic Private Equity.

And he has a angel syndicate with the Virgin Lot. So he put us in touch with,

Holly Branson.

Freddy who's,

Holly's [00:23:00] husband.

And they came in as the first cornerstone

investors.

We have nothing.

We had prole

Who cooked up some of our recipes in lockdown.

And that was all fun.

But

other than PR talking about bugs, and holding off our sort of recipe

box, they were like the first real sort of backers of the idea.

And since then, it's just been a networking thing,

And taking opportunities when you see it.

And

that

actually as a muscle to build.

It, I would say it's the highest ROI thing

ever,

literally ever. Like whenever you see

someone

you who you might recognize

and you

like, so easy to be like, no,

it's not

really them.

but I always go up

and be like, oh, are you so and and I started to have a conversation

with them,

Even in the office space.

So maximize the water cooler

moment, like what do you do?

And it's moments like that, that you end up meeting people

but I think too many people are too scared to just say hi

and have a conversation.

We,

Arthur: It, it's

funny [00:24:00] because,

You

talked earlier about how certain

moments you,

sometimes

there's moments you don't expect.

Change your world, what drink

was it?

Over G O? Yeah. Yeah.

passed

across less now than

10 years ago.

But

Can

you think of some

moments

where

you've been with

someone really

successful who,

think

BrewDog

did, the

fan of

of James Hall invested?

I'm not on very good terms with him at the moment though. Okay.

I've been told off with him by him like loads.

Yeah. And basically the issue is, and total like

fairly,

yeah.

Is that like he's interested in US generating revenue, he wants us to,

To,

scale

this. And I

totally understand that. My number one thing is how do we generate loads? How do we take box mainstream? Like in order to do that, we need to

sell.

But

I think there's disconnect and misalign misalignment on the strategy.

Which has meant that he's lost

interest.

But

the,

Moments with

other entrepreneurs that you've met or it could even be,

[00:25:00] A colleague, A

member of the

team.

Where have there been moments of just advice you've been given that you've been like, wow, that was, that's made me view

things in a very

different way and change your

action. Or

You are, you're suddenly you're whipping

out

your

phone to

write stuff

down

down

every

week.

Leo: And that could, like this weekend it came from my wife.

But I think.

From like

a

strategic perspective, someone who's been very important for us is James Griffiths, another James from Mouse.

We met actually on the James Watt thing. We were on the next unicorn.

We went on the

plane to Vegas 'cause James flew out all the finalists for that.

And James has been awesome at,

Just

on the weekends and stuff, chatting through ideas

and

next steps. And he's been quite instrumental actually

in how

I thought about

Young Bug. And to give you a concrete example,

Actually both James's James Watt

suggested that we open a, bug restaurant.

I thought

it was a terrible idea at the time.

James [00:26:00] Griffith also doubled down on that, was like, actually, that could be a really good idea. So both of them were championing this idea of owning a restaurant.

And,

The, popups were just insane for us.

Depends what you measure. 'cause it wasn't a profitable business,

But for

credibility

around insects, for

pr, a hundred million impressions in the press. Every breakfast show, front page guardian it was just insane.

Completely sold out thousands and thousands on the waiting list. It was just nuts.

We still weren't profitable,

restaurants are hard. But

Yeah, that,

was something that, that

they

both championed for. And JG since has been,

As I say, like quite a close

advisor.

And, to be

like candid, when Aaron and my co-founder left,

it was quite sort

of

an existential crisis for me.

It

was,

the person who you've been building this business

with

isn't leaving,

So what do I do? And we weren't profitable at that time, and there's a whole load of challenges ahead.

So I, it was a decision making point, do [00:27:00] I keep going or do I,

Fold up and,

Essentially give people the excuse that Aaron's left, so I'm gonna

leave too. Yeah.

And we we gave a good shot, but we weren't profitable. Not profitable yet.

But jg like on the other,

essentially on the other end of the phone was like

Is this what the

laws of physics are saying? Or are you just being lazy?

The challenge there was margins. 'cause margins right now are shit.

'cause we don't have economies of scale. We, need some serious CapEx to go into the manufacturing and supply chain.

So he was talking from the margins perspective.

Does the laws of physics say

that you can't produce this product,

At the, at good uni economics? Or are you just being lazy?

And I was like, oh, I'm just being lazy

so I'm gonna crack on. It was as simple as

that.

And and in moments like

that,

he's been absolutely pivotal and I wouldn't be sat here

and I wouldn't have recommitted

, To this whole challenge without that

conversation.

Arthur: That's really interesting points that you make.

Just the

concept of how we're often,

we often end up,

Doing

well, really , through other [00:28:00] people's help, through other, learning about other

people's journey.

Through

people Encouraging us on the journey.

How

do you

support

others on

that,

because

much about

what you do

is around solving a problem. We

talked about the environment,

And

really

contributing.

Yeah.

It's

interesting you asked me that because,

I actually

think that the thing that I'm most interested

in

is helping people be their best selves.

And what

another way of saying that is fulfilling their own goals.

I think what's amazing about teams in a very philosophical sense is that

they help

people do their best work and realize their dreams.

If Mbu

can do that for people

Amazing, and that I think also selfishly that's

How the best functioning teams are. Everyone's there because they believe in it And because it's helping them be the person they want to be.

So I've always [00:29:00] strived and I think to a fault actually,

the company's mission.

So I'm rowing back on it a little bit. But,

Try to create an environment where

that's the

case. And I think

Where it has become problematic is when I'm

Hoping

and

almost to to a point where I'm imposing.

that

when you're in an interview and you're like, is this what do you actually want?

People will tell you anything. And even when you, they're an employee.

But

when

it actually comes down to the wire and we need to perform as a team,

are people showing up in a way that,

That

matches what they're saying? I think I've over-indexed

on

believing them versus

watching how they show up, if that makes sense.

Like you are saying

that,

You really care about this, but

we've not got the

work done.

. So what actually matters? In an

ideal so actually the issue there's me 'cause that was bad hiring.

But I would love for this to be a vehicle for people to, to [00:30:00] realize their dreams,

Whether that's at Youngberg or not.

Yeah.

This can this could totally be a stepping stone,

but if you're coming in and we're pulling and we're a world class

team. Going for gold. This is,

Like part of my spiel that

certainly

people have hated '

is We've gotta think like an Olympic team.

We

have to

be world class.

This is the hardest thing

in food right now,

And we're a handful of people and we have to be extraordinary,

otherwise this isn't gonna happen

so can you show

up

like that?

So

Leo: I,

you

being

an entrepreneur

It's

a, it,

is hardcore.

Arthur: What

are you grateful for? What it's

taught you

and,

What

does it lead you into thinking about

the world? Maybe

that's for you going forward

or,

Leo: frankly I'm grateful for

everything.

That sounds,

I think we've got

a

weird view on

success in the West.

I think it's so not that in the world but especially in the West.

I think it's so[00:31:00]

individualistic.

It's, I am responsible for my own success.

I am responsible for this mindset that I've created for myself.

It's

no, you're not

like, I didn't decide to want to

start a

business. I

didn't decide to think the way that I

do.

It's not like an intentional decision.

I can decide

maybe to act on

it,

but

I.

I feel very lucky

to,

how I see it is to have experienced the things that I have to be in the conditions and,

Around the people I have been around

that has

caused me

to want certain

things. Yeah.

And all I'm able to do is double click on

that, I cannot double click on that, but there's a massive bias

to wanting to do those things,

Versus someone who hasn't experienced that.

And

yeah,

I appreciate, I'm talking at a high level here and I think, but I think on a social level it's important that we recognize that,

And,

I've committed,

if this [00:32:00] exits, I've committed 10% to Founder's pledge,

Which will, give back.

And I think that's the least I could do.

I'm very privileged. This is privilege to be working on, to be in these trenches.

And I think that's a, actually a really important mindset also in the team.

You've got to

wake

up in the

trenches and believe it's another day in paradise, and you're lucky to be

there.

You are

lucky to be working at 2:00 AM

On this amazing

thing.

It's not a cost,

You've chosen to be here,

so

You can be here or you can be in an architecture

practice.

Yeah. This has paradise.

Yeah. And that's helped me like go through some really tough times.

Arthur: Tough

times.

If you met someone tomorrow and for a coffee and

useful, they were

just,

they were they were in a difficult

place.

What

are the things you

would

share to

them?

And

you're not allowed to be

British hair.

You've got,

It's

clean

clean truths.

What the first thing I certainly wouldn't do is start spouting

feedback,

And. [00:33:00]

I

would

ask questions really.

I think it's very easy to go into problem solving mode.

And the worst

thing in the world, the absolute worst thing in the world is low information, high conviction,

Which is, most people, most of the time,

When they're giving feedback

like

so con so much conviction around you don't really understand the situation,

So how do you get to a position of high information low convict or like

appropriate conviction?

And you do that through asking questions.

What's the problem?

How do you see the situation?

What are the options?

Just having a conversation,

But,

Trying to

ask as many questions as possible and be,

I think that the head space there is curiosity.

Do I really understand what's going on

here?

And Absolutely there is a place to, say a

piece.

I but I think,

There's

also a risk of unsolicited

unli, unsolicited advice. Yeah. So a question on

are [00:34:00] you open for me to, share what I

think.

Just something like that. And these are like the fundamental building blocks of coaching,

right? Just helping people work through their problems and the best possible outcome is they come to a solution themselves. 'cause you've asked a really good question.

Like it could be a priority issue I've got this going on, but

I don't really.

Don't really know what to do.

'cause

I want to do this, but this is a really good opportunity

as

an example of a kind of problem.

It's okay

like how do we work

through that? What are your goals?

Yeah.

You can

structure a conversation to understand, help them understand what their priorities are,

and you almost don't need to give them an answer.

So it, it will depend totally on what the problem is that they're facing.

You talked about being in

the trenches,

but part of being

in the trenches is your, other people who are in the trenches.

What should, those that are curious about the

food

space,

The sustainability space,

what

should we be '

reading? What's exciting at the moment?

Leo: There's

so much going on.

Yeah.

To be honest, I'm not a great person [00:35:00] to ask for

Information. cause I've com I've completely

upended my information diet,

I used to

think that it's

about knowledge acquisition,

and I think there's a degree of truth in that.

So I used to spend a lot of time

consuming stuff, reading all the articles that I could.

But

what I've come to realize

is it's almost like your question about the notebook. It's

is this helping solve the problem that I need to solve?

And oftentimes it wasn't. It was a distraction.

I was labeling reading as useful,

but actually I just needed to

often

just

execute on stuff,

Rather than consuming content. So I've completely upended got rid of the news and all that sort of stuff. There's nothing I can be doing about the war

in Ukraine

In my position right now.

To understand, there are way smarter people, Dealing with all these issues.

That's a long-winded way of saying that.

My focus right now

is on [00:36:00] answering the questions that I know we need to answer.

Getting rid

of everything else and actually swapping that the key thing for me is actually swapping,

What used to be podcasting time for networking time.

There is totally, I must emphasize there is totally a role

for listening to podcast, to reading and knowledge acquisition. But I think.

you need

to

know all that you need to know to be able to do the stuff you need to do. And, beyond that it becomes like entertainment. It's not, it's no longer

useful

Arthur: A

lot to focus

on.

We are

going to move now to the quick

fire

questions.

Three things that bring

you joy.

Leo: Three things. Meeting new people,

Swimming in the ponds on the weekend that we hamster teeth. Going to the gym is my sort of all or run, like it is

my zen

space. A

Arthur: that you want to

communicate

about today.

The one that I,

that really

Shifted things for me

is

the belief that I'm in control

of my [00:37:00] out

outcomes.

And at 16 I got this tattooed on my foot.

So this was

a massive inflection point in my life.

It was success as a choice.

For everything that we've just spoken about.

Do

I actually, why am I responsible for this way of thinking and the things that I want? Not necessarily. So

it's not,

necess.

I think there's massive

caveats in that, but I think

as the first thing to believe

to make

your situation in the world better,

you've got to believe you've got agency

And,

have control.

So it's still important for me.

Yeah. I can

decide to go to the gym

or to go out for a burger.

I

get

to

choose, and

putting that responsibility on you

and me personally, has been so important

to realizing that.

that I.

Leo: Just

being clear on what my goals are,

'cause success is a choice.

Like what is success? It's achieving your

goals.

And I get to choose that. [00:38:00] As much as all of this stuff, as I keep reiterating, I wouldn't say

came from

me. It was just like an amalgamation of things that I've experienced and been

exposed

to.

But yeah if that can help anyone listening

then go

for it. Go find your success?

Arthur: Best

advice you've ever been given from

someone?

Leo: from someone.

I think

It's

probably this

guy who

who helped

me understand what I cared about.

But I think the moral of the story there was just understand your goals.

I think so many people are optimizing for things. They don't really

understand

where it's going.

They're

making decisions not really understanding what's important.

And the

only

way, because there are no

inherent rights or

wrongs, what is a right decision versus a wrong decision.

It has to be against

a goal. Are you going

over there or over there? There's no right answer. But to know whether that way or that way is [00:39:00] right. You've gotta understand where the end point

is. And so many people

don't do that

because it's hard. It's hard to commit to say, I,

actually want to go over there

because

that means I'm not going there. yeah.

And, that's really what that J two O conversation did. is like, what are your goals?

And

that's been the

question

That has allowed me to

commit to shit. To

say I'm doing

bugs, I'm going over there. Yeah. So I'm saying no to

six

figure salaries and all the rest of it. But like such nice opportunities. Yeah. I still get offers, yeah. But I'm taking bugs pain stream, so I'm going to be ramen and

living off no salary because that's where I'm going.

Self

empathy,

What does that mean to you?

It's been, it is been quite a tricky one to really get my head around. But what it, how it shows up in my life is Balance

Balance looks different for everyone. But balance for me

is, am I doing,

I dunno if you've read atomic tablets

[00:40:00] James Clear quote book,

the question he asks is what are the most upstream things? that means that everything else down downstream

increases its chance of success.

So as an example, for me, if I get my gym in that day, I'm clearheaded. Everything else works. I sleep better . so self empathy is creating space for the things that matter.

Like catching up with my wife. Hanging out with friends on the weekend. That balance, has meant I can run this marathon and not tire. Speak of eating eggs.

We've got something to your hair, which is all delicious products. Oh my goodness. So all the way from where's it come from this morning? Ton. Okay, we go just on the road. Oh, delicious. Delicious. Thank you. How so when? No I thought to myself before this what, whatever the answer's gonna be quite polite.

I didn't expect it to genuinely be so good. [00:41:00] Congratulations. Wow, thanks very much. It what tomato talks to us about the ingredients. So right now I'm eating, it's, how do you describe it? It is a chili con coffee chi, chili con coffee made with young mug mints. So it's a cricket mints.

It's very clean label. I, part of it. So it is made of crickets, flour, holy wheat, flour and salts. It's over 85% cricket. Very clean. This is all natural. A lot of people obviously are quite concerned about the process foods and these meat alternatives.

This isn't a meat alternative as such because it is meat. One of our taglines is better meat. And it's been very important for us to keep the crickets natural. Not try to make it beef, so it's not gonna bleed, we're not gonna add science to it to make it do the things that, normal beef would do.

Yeah. So what you are really trying is the minced up crickets?

That was delicious.

[00:42:00]