Prison Release Reality: Why Housing Comes First at ARK Resettlement Services — Kingsley Bempah

Arthur: [00:00:00] Kingsley Bumper, it's such a pleasure to have you here today. Listeners. We today have a really exciting guest. Kingsley has set up an organization called arc Resettlement Services, a really exciting organization, which has. Helped over a thousand people supporting them from being released from prison. You spend your life supporting people with a criminal conviction to have the chance to be able to reintegrate with society and have a better future. Kinley what an exciting, way to spend your time. It's great to have you here.

Kingsley: Thank you very much. Thanks, Arthur. Thanks for having me on.

Arthur: just to give the listeners some information about the charity. Arcs was set up in 2014 with the mission to reduce re-offending rates in the UK and supports people in a whole range of ways when they leave prison.

Providing accommodation, access to benefits, improving physical mental health, introducing them to the community and helping them gain trust in [00:01:00] themselves. Now some quick facts. 70,000 people are released from prison each year in the uk. On average, 68% of those re-offend, 48% will offend.

Within year one, 30% of people who leave prison have nowhere to live. ARC's mission is to lower this arc helps people in their first two years of support in providing these services. And has achieved phenomenal success to date. So 87.5% of their service users did not re-offend between and 2024.

They've helped over 1,503 people to date, and eight out of 10 people live independently after working with a so many things to think about. Kingsley, were there clues earlier on in your life that you would be doing something like this?

Kingsley: Well, Arthur, thanks for that. I think earlier in life you go through life's journeys and [00:02:00] through I, I would say it is quite funny because I didn't have any of my family members involved in the criminal justice. But I guess, growing up I knew people that were involved in the criminal justice and some of the pathways that.

And they had to take as a result of that. And that really shaped my thinking in my life in terms of how people that due to possible the experiences in life as, as, as a child or, or all of them were connected with something that I felt wasn't working as a result, that they commit an offense.

Whether it starts, , petty crimes to, to becoming repeat offenders and, and then leading up some of them unfortunately, to prison. So these are some of the earlier life experiences that really shape my thinking when it comes to people that are involved in the criminal justice.

Arthur: what do you see as the low lowest hanging fruits to helping people in these [00:03:00]circumstances?

Kingsley: It starts from earlier years and in our sector,, early intervention is key to, starting from when the kids are in school. Those are the signs, the children's home life, who they hang out with. Those things are early indicators when it comes to people eventually getting themselves into the criminal justice system.

So this has some of the, the areas that I feel that is always important for us to look at what is happening in the early years, if those issues are dealt with. I think that it's done. A, they, they stand a chance of becoming , capable individuals in society by addressing these early signs when their children.

Arthur: it's quite remarkable what you've achieved, given how many stakeholders you've had to work with over the years. Give us an insight into, I mean for, for example, your charity that you set up has, bought, bought buildings, works with so many different [00:04:00] stakeholders.

Give us a flavor of advice that you have for people in terms of getting things done.

Kingsley: Well thanks for that. 'cause the, her flavors is quite many, as she said, we work with different stakeholders and difficulty is trying to get the door open for us to, , to be able to tell our stories. 'cause I think it's really important for us to, lets a p potential stakeholder to know what problems we're trying to solve.

So they know that we are set up to solve a problem, but they want to know how effective are these issues that are problems that we are trying to solve? How well do we, what we trying to address these important issues. So, as we know, accommodation plays a, a key role as, as you say in your introduction.

People release from custody into the community with nowhere to live. It's a problem. How would they be able to manage their risk within the community? All of these things are, are [00:05:00] important factors. So we try and do our very best to speak to our, stakeholders and, and, and our founders to be able to help us to solve these important societal problems that tend to become society's problem when people in the community who have.

F criminal convictions with nowhere to live. That becomes a, a society's problem because of these issues, not such as not having a fixed address, and these are issues that can't lead to them re-offending and going back to prison.

Arthur: there's this phrase of you. When you give things come back at you. Eventually there must have been moments where you've been really touched by people backing you. Maybe it's a financial institution deciding to work with you, or, someone who's got a, amazing, experience, expertise,

Throw us into an understanding of when you've been backed.

Kingsley: if I want to talk about all these fund, that'd be, you know, it's going [00:06:00] take their whole program, but I, I think that yeah, people can go to our website, asessment.co, the uk ww do arc reassessment or arc rs.co uk to see that, but is exactly what you said, Arthur, about organizations buying into what we do.

We've got organizations such as the John Amit, charitable Trust. That's been really good to us. The community Fund.

The City Brick Trust garfield Worsting, we have other potential organization that we are speaking to at the moment that will also want to support us. So, the numbers are growing, but , to have organizations that want to help us , to deliver some of the outcomes that we desperately need.

I should, I mentioned fish humongous as well have, have been supportive to our work and they're helping us particularly to a particular service that address people give them any interventions as they come out of prison. But recently [00:07:00] also we've have social investors. And that has helped us to be able to purchase one of our, our properties to be able to spread and improve the work that we do. Such investment business has been supportive and also have trust for London helping us to, make accommodations that people desperately need to when they are released into the community.

Arthur: The hurdles, that you would've climbed over to get, even one of those institutions who worked with you, must be quite remarkable. Looking back to, the long journey, you set this charity up in 2014. What would be the messages that you would pass on now to your younger self in seeing where you've got today?

Because I feel like patience must have been such a big play in that how have you kept the hope in those moments where you've just faced brick wall after brick wall.

Kingsley: Absolutely. I, I think the, the well to tell my younger self a start of resilience because, we [00:08:00] are working to resolve a problem in society and the people that we are trying to help are the ones that are marginalized in society. So that is a driving force trying to be resilient in our approach.

I think I'll tell my younger self to be patient, as you said, and also to let the, the service users that we're trying to help tell their own stories to be able to see their journey with us. I think that's really important, to look at where they were when we first start working with them to the, the, the transformation that they've, they've made at the end of the year, two years, those things. It is a driving force that really I'll speak to my young myself not to give up, but keep going and have that, determination and the resilience to be able to support these ones because we know that we are doing something that is worthwhile. So [00:09:00] I would tell my lender said to keep going.

Arthur: there must be so many moving moments. Maybe there's a moment where you've cried because. Of the feeling so overwhelmed by a case where you've been able to help someone. Can you put us into that situation where you've heard about an in individual who really needs help and things have just, you've been able to really support 'em and now things are going well.

Kingsley: Yeah, I mean it's, it's quite a lot. And, and of course my team, I do get monthly reports about the ones, some of the differences that we are making. So there's quite a number of them. And you see some of the problems, Arthur, is that people that's struggling with substance misuse before they went into prison and upon release.

And some of the challenges that they face. There've been quite a number of them, but the ones that we clearly in my mind, is one of our service users that because of [00:10:00] his index offense, had to spend a life. He was on a life license. What was, what previously used to be the IPP. So he, he spent right about up to total to about 20 year plus in prison.

And to see the transformation, coming out to the big world knowing that, societies have moved on, even though he was in prison, he hadn't had the opportunity , to adapt himself to technologies of the world that has moved on. So to see such an individual who spent majority of his life in prison and coming out.

I'm addressing some of the substance misuse issues that he was going through and being able to settle in the community on our two year program able to move on to independent living. Now it's a joy to and as you said, , can be emotional to see the transformational of people, , making these important steps in their life.

To, to be able to [00:11:00] live a life that is free from crime is quite rewarding to be honest.

Arthur: Yeah. Yeah, we're now gonna just show a video which tells the story of one of these individuals. so Kingsley that, that remarkable story really shows quite rawly how you help people get a job support 'em with housing. Tell us about that story.

Because, there are, there's certain big parts to that individual like that, getting housing, finding work confidence in themselves, must be such a big issue.

Kingsley: Yeah, I mean it's, it's really important that people that, , experience custodial sentence upon release will have somewhere to, to live. And the idea is to help them settle within the community. And also having a fixed address. You know, people forget that if you come out, if you release into the big world with no fixed address you wouldn't be able to [00:12:00] access things such as benefits.

Such as healthcare, , you need a fixed address to be able to access a GP for example. So all these things are crucial when people come out of prison. Being able to give them a stability for up to 24 months, the idea is to just to help them to access these important minutes within the community.

And it's important for them to also connect with their family members. These are part of their rehabilitation, family and friends close to where they live. And also be able to, to engage within the statutory sector. 'cause such ones come out with having statutory responsibilities with the police and also with the probation service.

Having a fixed address helps them to be able to supervised with the air license in the community. But the, remarkable thing that comes as a result of that is being able to have a place to [00:13:00] call home because majority of these individuals haven't had an opportunity upon release from prison where, some unfortunately who are released with no fixed address end up sleeping on a bus or end up homeless and as a result, continuing the re-offending lifestyle as a result of that.

Having somewhere to live is so important in addressing the offending behavior. Being able to do that is something that we pride ourself in knowing that we are able to resolve such an important part of the air life

Arthur: and where are things at for you today? Do you see the charity? Do you think it's reached at scale? Its optimum size.

Kingsley: Well, that's a good question. We are trying to be supportive 'cause , we, our referral reach is we, we get referrals all over the country, so it's very difficult. But unfortunately we don't have the capacity to be able to, have so many bed [00:14:00] spaces. At the moment we've got only about a hundred bed spaces.

But, we have , a three to five year strategy that we are working on with the board and the idea is to have an incremental, change at the same time, reach many people as as we can, but it, it all depends on, support that we get to be able to address these issues that people face as, as providing them with accommodation up and release.

Arthur: Interesting. And looking at the wonderful material charity has produced as well as insights clearly it's so multifaceted in how these people can receive support and the nature of, and the complexity, the support that it, the really they need. I guess in, if on one end of the spectrum you've got providing someone with housing that's a big support, right?

Difficult to scale are there. Services that you feel are, can be easily, more easily scaled that you are being pulled to [00:15:00] create or not.

Kingsley: Yeah, I mean there's always services that, you know, 'cause we, we've got specific projects that we run that we feel that can be scaled. But of course, it depends on, there's always funding constraints. And as, as you know, Arthur, I mean, when it comes to charities are, one of the superpowers that they have is always trying to raise funding for , these specific projects.

I guess one of the things that we are trying to do now is to fundraise for court costs rather than specific project. 'cause we already have existing specific projects that we feel that we need to develop a bit more, but it's about trying to go deeper rather than trying to, spread ourself thing.

Perfect what we already established we've got so many different projects that we run, and we've got the care project, the moving forward project the Archivers service as well. These services is geared towards supporting [00:16:00] people to meet specific outcomes.

Such as employment, training education and t as is already important. And there are specific services that focuses on, fun and enjoyment. For example, some individuals because of the history haven't had the opportunity to learn certain skills, people skills when it comes to things such as, traveling to different parts of the country.

They had the opportunity to do that yet. Things like volunteering is also really important. So there are specific projects that deals with specific needs of our services. So you just, we just want to make sure that more people are able to access these projects and programs that we produce internally.

Arthur: And how can listeners support your charity? What are the key challenges that you are facing in the moment? Is it more housing specifically through working with property owners or funding?

Kingsley: Yeah, it's a combination of what we've said Arthur. The challenges we [00:17:00] face now is being able to meet the services demands when it comes to being able to accommodate these individuals. Of course we like , to have that support when it comes to helping us accommodate this individuals also to, be able to give them support after their resettlement.

'cause after the two year program we help them to. Acquire independent accommodation, be good for us to, continue to offer them floating support, just checking to see if things are okay after they moved on from us. 'Cause sometimes because of the complexity of these individuals that we work with, they'll still need some kind of, follow up support.

And because, of our capacity issues, we're not able to keep up with these things. And, as I'm sure you've heard in the news about the, the early release program because of that, we inundated with people being referred to us needing a place to [00:18:00] live upon release. So all of these things stretches what we can offer at the moment.

So yes, the more support, the better for us. And if there are organization out there that would like to partner with us, but we love to have organizations that want to help us reach as many people as.

Arthur: Are there policy changes that you feel should be in place as soon as possible that could reduce re-offending rates.

Kingsley: I, I, I say, well, I think there are a lots of things and subsequent governments have been working with voluntary sex organization and charities and, community interest organizations over the years. It comes down to, listening to the organizations on the ground because there are, there are not just a ARC assessment services there, but they are.

Other grassroots organizations that are trying to partner national and regional organizations, charities to resolve these [00:19:00] problems. It's about speaking to these grassroots organizations and, and, and regional and national organizations who trying to resolve the same problems. So it's listening really, and it's also about trying to support this organization, not through just funding, but one of the best gifts you can give to organization is helping to strengthen their governances,, to support such organizations, to reach as many people as possible.

Arthur: There feels like such a big disconnect between the world of crime people have got a criminal record. And as you say, other parts of society. Do you envision a way in which, two systems can work together more? For example, mentorship schemes do you have a view on people who are very far away from these worlds being educated around them?

Kingsley: I, yeah, you are right. I think that there's a disconnect , [00:20:00] with people's understanding of the criminal justice system. People that go to prison, unfortunately, there is a disconnect. It's important that we understand that, people that offend are part of our society. And if we don't try to address these problems by giving them structure support within the community, they'll become our problem. It's about understanding the processes and people that slightly end up within our criminal justice to see what sort of support they would need when they're in a community.

 But have an understanding, of, why people offend and what are some of the impacts that it has on the individuals and the society at large. And we all sometimes unfortunately, become victims of crime or, or sometimes also we know someone that's sadly ever engaged in such [00:21:00] activity.

So it's about having an understanding. Not to just to, demonize people that's unfortunately find themselves in these situations, but to have an understanding of what they can do to, to help. And that's what, ARC Assessment Services is doing

Arthur: If one imagines someone's, sentence is about to finish, they're about to leave jail. In the most basic terms, that sounds a day that they're very looking forward to, but it's become clear that's also a very scary day because for some people, they don't have a home to move to.

They don't have a fixed address, a job can you shed some light into the reality for these people and how difficult it is for them?

Kingsley: Absolutely. Arthur thought . Imagine people that spend, their time in, in prison majority of the time such individuals lose contact with their family and there might be a relationship breakdown if they are in relationships. And if they have children, chances are [00:22:00] that their children wouldn't have, that relationship that they had with their parents as other parents would have some of the privileges that parents within the community will have.

They wouldn't have that. So, and plus, they're coming into into the community not equipped with certain skills that they need to be able to, get into education, training and employment, all these factors and manage to, and them trying to resetter in the community and compounded the fact that they wouldn't have any fixed address.

Majority of the individuals that are released from prison wouldn't have a fixed address. And that can be an issue. Trying to, imagine someone trying to. Access education, training or employment or healthcare with no fixed address. How would that person be able, to access these services?

So these are some of the challenges that they face. So having a place to live, a [00:23:00] place, a vital role in, in stabilizing these individuals within the community?

Arthur: Has there been a case where you've come across someone who, unfortunately, things are really tough and there's not looking like a way out for them based on so many variables, but somehow against all odds. They've got out of whatever place that is and are doing really well.

Kingsley: Yeah, I mean, there's a number of them that we've worked with myself and, and a team. Especially, our, our frontline team and our managers they, they deal with individuals justice on a daily basis. People that upon release were struggling to be able to maintain that sense of independence within the community.

So unfortunately some struggle , to cope with the demand of being on the outside because of not being able to imprison everything is, you in a confined [00:24:00] space you are supported and given certain things to be able to reach out to, but in a community it's, it's quite, it can be difficult.

Those that probably are struggling with substance misuse might end up going back to their old ways. And these things can happen where individuals come. And they get back to their old lifestyle again because they feel there was no support in the community for them. And there've been instances where support these individuals have managed to sort out their substance misuse and dependencies and able to eventually hold onto a voluntary work and also eventually get into paid employment.

Arthur: Are there some misconceptions around this whole world that you get frustrated about

Kingsley: I mean, there's, there's quite a lot.

Arthur: in?

Kingsley: I mean, there's a lot of misconceptions about, people released from prison have, all sort of issues that [00:25:00] they needs dealing with people that want to live on the same street with them, or, they bring crime or they bring all sort of stuff.

That's a lot of misconception when it comes to people that are incarcerated and coming into the community, so it's about, trying to educate ourselves on how to, deal with such individuals. They are human beings like any of us, but it's just that they took a wrong path and in life people make mistakes.

We make mistakes, and suddenly they are incarcerated. The idea is to correct them and, and they've spend their time and once they're. We all as a society have to play a part in helping them to resetter in the community, but rather have a preconceived ideas about how they, they feel that they are gonna be performing within the community

but like any other person, they need support. They need connecting to their family members. Love and care that any of us will [00:26:00] experience returning to a, a place that we removed from because of our mistakes that we make. If we are able to give them support, majority will turn their, their life around.

Arthur: we Are there any stories you'd like to tell us?

Kingsley: One particular one that really stood out to me as a particular individual that was a Michelin chef, this, these guy was doing really well.

And as a result the stresses,, he was a normal, we used say a normal person doing, you know, a very important work. But, he became addicted to substances eventually, and he was struggling and eventually because of his dependencies. He committed a crime and went in and for some time he spent about four years in prison and this individual wrote to us wrote to the team about a program that he wants [00:27:00] to work on upon release.

So he wanted us to help him. So the team was supporting him. We started to visit him in prison to work on his, his, his, his project that he wanted to, work on. And the, his program was based on using food to support people when he's out. So cooking, for example. So, and, and the cooking fosters friendship and discussion about their experiences and their life journeys.

This individual was released the team really supported him to set up this food project that he had in mind. And, I'm happy to say that he is now out and doing very well in the community and is able to use cooking and sitting down and having a meal together, and also having [00:28:00] important conversations about his journey and what the other people are going through.

And also teaching them cooking skills. These individuals, I learned one of the outcomes I was looking for is that these individuals that have joined his program will benefit of from, having a cook meal rather than, depending on takeaways and far food. Can go on to tell you about, those helping their peers to get into fitness ,

These are all things that, brings us joy to see that they're able to become productive members of society.

Arthur: Are there quite some, quite left field examples that you can think of? People having a niche skill that ended up, plucking them into a world of opportunities that they never expected.

Kingsley: Yeah,, you see people that have got, they always, most of our services always pride themselves in being entrepreneurial. We've seen that they have this drive and desire to be entrepreneurs, and that's really [00:29:00] nice to see. And so interesting what one of our service users who were proudly, because he started a personal trainer, , for some time that ought to spend about eight years in prison.

And eventually, he set up a personal training company he's doing really well and. He was able to probably came to us well, , during our, our 10 year anniversary where, he told us and informed us that he's now managed to purchase a house, which is an incredible feeling to, to, to, to be able to see his journey and where he's at now.

And it's just incredible really to see that these individuals are able to make those changes, working, looking after themselves and their families.

Arthur: Do you have views around, people visiting a prison? Education exposure being an important piece in terms of society, understanding more around crime and how we can reduce re-offending rates.

Kingsley: Yeah, I think you, you can't blame,, [00:30:00] society about that you are known about people that, , go to prison, people that,, if you don't know anyone or having experience that I think people have, as we said, preconceived ideas about the precinct set up. But it's just, I should say it's about education really.

We can't blame society for, having these preconceived ideas. But what we can do is to try to, educate people, talk to people about how can we help people that's slightly a part of society that's get themself into these problems in life. So it's about. Trying to have a, a positive view about people that sadly had , to go through these journeys and such as being in prison because it happens to, in, two of my years working within the sector.

It's not just people that we feel fits a certain brackets, [00:31:00] but any walks of life. This, this can happen to the best of us. I've seen people that, were holding really important jobs in society that's sadly got himself into trouble. And so it's about viewing such individuals that they have the ability to transform their life, irrespective of their past.

That's how we should see it. As we said in the beginning, early intervention when it comes from the children to adults is really important because majority of the. Issues and the problems that we face as adults is linked to our childhood experience. And these are some of the issues that, society need to pay attention to when it comes to people that go on to offend.

Arthur: clearly there's so many parts of the puzzle. Are there lots of opportunities for people to volunteer in these prisons? How can people who have got a bit of time help people who are [00:32:00]in that world?

Kingsley: yeah, that's, that's a very good question. , There are opportunities for people to volunteer. Of course, in the community more than, prisons. They have their. A ways that you can volunteer, but I think that most of the support and people volunteering their time within the community to, you know these voluntary organization, voluntary sex organizations, these charities that are doing an incredible job in helping these individuals and majority of these organizations are small.

And they will deal with some skills. There are, professionals that can help this individual, this organizations , to improve the, the, the governance, for example. To improve in areas. 'cause, charities are not set up to be business orientated, but these individuals that are skilled with, whether it's legal or accountancy human resources,

Arthur: what are the reasons to be [00:33:00] optimistic right now? Maybe it's to do with what you're seeing in policy changes. It could also be related to some learnings that you've had as an organization around what can ha help people?

Kingsley: I mean, there's, as you Riley said, there is, there is a lot of opportunities. We should look at the future with a lot of optimism because we know that these issues that society face. This can be addressed. And so we are quite optimistic in terms of people that we have managed to support in our own small way.

There is reason for optimism, but it has to come to how we able to get external support outside of, local authorities and other statutory organizations that help support our works. But the belief that we've had from, trust and foundations in helping our work to reach where we've reached at the moment, we wouldn't have [00:34:00] done it without the support that we've received.

Arthur: We are now gonna move on to the quick file questions. Three things that bring you joy.

Kingsley: People family always brings us, brings me joy and being able to connect with individuals and organizations that share our passion for helping people and supporting people.

Arthur: A mantra you want to embrace now would be

Kingsley: Keep it simple.

Arthur: one unusual thing that gives you pleasure.

Kingsley: I like to, visit new places that haven't been places that I've had that, you know, it is a NoGo area, but yeah, those things will give me pleasure.

Arthur: A no go. Eric tell us a

Kingsley: Yeah. And when people think, oh, you don't have to visit this place 'cause this and that, and that, but I like to, I'm quite always intrigued about, what people feel might [00:35:00] not be the right thing to do about just, when you are working with this sector, you always like to take a risk, so that's, that's what.

That's what drives me sometimes, and I usually, I just want to try things that people don't want to do.

Arthur: It just makes me think of surprises. You must live in such world filled with so many surprises around, extraordinary stories about people, but also extraordinary accomplishments of what people achieve. Having had certain things happen to them.

Kingsley: Yeah. There's always, , we say in our line of world that, every day is not the same because we deal with people with complex needs and that really gives us a lot of joy and satisfaction knowing that we are able to help people to make a difference in their lives.

Or sometimes it's about not only the challenges they face in a day, but some of the achievements as well, such as helping someone to be able to apply to university. Those things just, wow, this is, this is [00:36:00] amazing. Some of our service users, pursuing, skilled at all, education.

We had someone recently got into bury University to pursue media and music. All these things are something that brings us joy to see that we are making a difference.

Sometimes about the simple things, some of our service users who were struggling had some issues that is able to never, pursue employment, but got voluntary work, for example, working with Animals, charity. All these things are an incredible achievement for individuals that have other health issues, that because of that, that limits what they can do, but eventually able to put themselves out there and to do something that really improve their physical and mental wellbeing.

, It's an amazing feeling to have.

Arthur: One thing that is in for you right now, and one thing that is out.

Kingsley: what's in for me? Is [00:37:00] that, , my daughter loves music, listening to some of her music has really inspired me what she's listened to and she likes the music that I grew up listening to, so that really makes me reconnect with the music.

She likes to listen to nineties music, and I like that, even though she's quite young teenager,

Arthur: and the last one is you'll see these people going through these transformations through helping them. And amazing story with this chap who, had keys thanks to your organization, and he made out that he's never, had a houseke before and every five minutes he just kept on, putting his hand on the his pocket.

And it's unreal to him, just the concept away. He's got a home. It's such a unique insight that you will have had through working with these thousands of people. What has it taught you around what things that humans really appreciate having?

Kingsley: we shouldn't underestimate the gift that [00:38:00] we have as humans. Things that sometimes some of us take for granted, but as humans, our needs are the same. , We all want to have a place to lay our heads. We all want to be loved. We all want to have a sense of purpose.

We all want to have families and friends, and these are some of the things that I've learned. That's whether you are involved in the criminal justice or not, our needs are the same. So if, if thoughts me to just really help me to look at the people that we're trying to help and that their needs are.

The same for either in, individuals or are pursuing different course of life. But yeah, it's just, it just grounds all of us that, yeah, well I need are the same. So like this individual you referred to who tap [00:39:00] on his keys. 'cause he's never had a place to live ever, but you might argue that,, he's in his forties, he should be able to at least have one tenancy, but he's never held a tenancy in his life.

So these are some of the factors that, brings us joy to see that we are able to make those small changes to help people to, to live independently.

Arthur: Can you say it's a real privilege to have your time and for you to share your story. You are clearly a very modest man as well with how you relate to all of your countless accomplishments. It very much feels like you help a world which is still very much behind the covers.

It's not known about, to, to most people. And there's huge opportunity for people to be helped through more storytelling, through more storytelling. And maybe through that [00:40:00] and donations, et cetera. The re-offending rates can go down. But thank you so much for coming on today and it's been a real privilege.

Kingsley: Yeah. Good to be with you Arthur. Thanks a lot. Thanks for inviting us.